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Coach/Player Poll

View Poll Results: If you had a choice then, which pair do you take?
B. Underwood/M. Smith 144 96.64%
C. Martin/J. Tilmon 5 3.36%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 15, 2017, 02:39 PM   #1
skyIdub
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I thought this would be a fun question now.

Go back two months and try and be honest.

If you had a choice then, which pair would you have picked?

B. Underwood/M. Smith

C. Martin/J. Tilmon
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Old May 15, 2017, 02:43 PM   #2
mattcoldagelli
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I mean, go back to the coaching search thread. Even the people who would've been on board with Cuonzo were doing it with some major reservations about his ceiling, and the prospect of Underwood even being available set off a near-riot among all but our least-informed posters.

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Old May 15, 2017, 02:46 PM   #3
foby
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With CM, I feel I'd be waiting from day 1 for the other shoe to drop. No matter who the recruit or what the situation, I feel it would just be a few seasons at best and then we are back in the loop we were stuck in during the last 10 seasons. BU is a great hire and will get the most out of his players.
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Old May 15, 2017, 03:10 PM   #4
TownieMatt
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Going to be tough to find an Illini fan that would take CM/JT after that saga. Might seem crazy, but I think I'd even take BU/MS over CM/JT and Porter Jr. Sure they're grabbing some recruiting headlines, but MPJr will be there one season so he really doesn't move the needle much for the program (paging LSU...).

All that being said, I think both programs are going to get better, but this thing is a marathon, not a sprint: I'll take Underwood.

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Old May 15, 2017, 03:18 PM   #5
zpfled
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One of the reasons I was ok with Martin early on was that I thought he would for sure land Mark Smith.
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Old May 15, 2017, 03:21 PM   #6
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I think if CM were hired here, we would have probably kept the class in tact and added Smith, but I think there was no real chance of getting the Porter package here. That was a perfectly-laid scenario for Mizzou how that all shook out.
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Old May 15, 2017, 03:49 PM   #7
Ubermensch
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Gee, I wonder how this is going to end?
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Old May 15, 2017, 03:51 PM   #8
afpharmdawg
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Way too easy to answer.

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Old May 15, 2017, 04:03 PM   #9
Illini1978
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Definitely would've taken a good point guard over a center even though center was more of a need. A good point guard makes everyone better on offense. Let's just get a good transfer now for the PF/C that can defend the middle.

Probably won't get a good 4-year PF/C until next year at this stage in recruiting. Glad the Tilmon saga is finally over. Pretty much knew where he was going anyway. Let's just make him regret that decision at the Braggin Rights game.
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Old May 15, 2017, 04:19 PM   #10
skyIdub
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Hahahha! Welp.

I think if this would have been much different had it actually been asked prior to the hirings. Oh well.
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Old May 15, 2017, 04:21 PM   #11
Adnarel
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I'll cast the contrarian vote.

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Old May 15, 2017, 04:21 PM   #12
Hands Malone
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Originally Posted by Illini1978 View Post
Definitely would've taken a good point guard over a center even though center was more of a need. A good point guard makes everyone better on offense. Let's just get a good transfer now for the PF/C that can defend the middle.

Probably won't get a good 4-year PF/C until next year at this stage in recruiting. Glad the Tilmon saga is finally over. Pretty much knew where he was going anyway. Let's just make him regret that decision at the Braggin Rights game.
Tilmon will be lucky to see the ball next season.
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Old May 15, 2017, 04:42 PM   #13
skyIdub
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Originally Posted by Adnarel View Post
I'll cast the contrarian vote.
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Old May 15, 2017, 07:00 PM   #14
BananaShampoo
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A coach is way more important than any one player. I repeat: a coach is way more important than any one player. Or even any two players. Or any three players (unless those three players are Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, and Lebron James).

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Old May 15, 2017, 11:13 PM   #15
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From what I've read and seen, Underwood seems like a vastly superior coach in terms of X's and O's and that should win out in the long term.

I will say, my biggest fear with our program's future is that we struggle next year without Tilmon's size inside and a less than stellar season hurts Underwood's ability to recruit in the short term. Since Martin's biggest strength is recruiting and he'd be bringing Tilmon with him in this hypothetical, one could make the argument for Martin.

However, Underwood has shown that he is ready and willing to adapt his game plan to his personnel (something we have seriously lacked with our last two coaches), and since Smith should be able to play valuable minutes next season, we should be able to tread water. As long as next season isn't a complete disaster, our future should be considerably brighter with Underwood.
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Old May 15, 2017, 11:21 PM   #16
icengineer
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If, on the day that Groce was let go, we were given a choice of Cuonzo Martin or Brad Underwood. I believe it would have been an overwhelming choice for Underwood. And in spite of the Porter thing going on there, I feel most fans see that for the flash-in-the-pan development that it most likely is.
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Old May 16, 2017, 05:17 AM   #17
Illiini
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Break this down:

I seem to remember a lot of equivocation about Martin before the Underwood choice, and after Whitman landed Underwood, there seemed to be a collective seal of approval. So Underwood over Martin.

Tilmon versus Smith: What does this add to the mix? Does it prove that Martin is a better recruiter/attraction than Underwood to the top tier of players we'd like to get? From a player standpoint, we need some tall guy (and OK, Tilmon is a really good tall guy). But Smith, well, I'm getting in a bit over my head here, but Smith seems to "fit Underwood's game plan" well enough that, all other things being equal, the players Smith is being teamed with can negate that height advantage.

BUT the question is Martin+Tilmon vs Underwood+Smith, and for that I'd take what we got. The players will eventually be gone. So might the coaches. And for that, I'll give Underwood more staying power at Illinois than Martin at Miznoz. The only way I'll give the combo advantage to the Mizduo is if it helps bring in other players to Columbia over Champaign.

Still, as I said elsewhere, I'll take what we got over what they're having, any day of the week.
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Old May 16, 2017, 06:48 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by zpfled View Post
One of the reasons I was ok with Martin early on was that I thought he would for sure land Mark Smith.
Cuonzo Martin received tremendous support on this board as a perspective coach for the Illini throughout the entire season, the most out of any other candidate. Now, people are branding him as garbage, despite bringing in the #1 player in the country, Tilmon, Harris, etc. a very good class right from the get go. Martin has been a head coach for 9 years, so either people were totally premature in their admiration and evaluation of Martin, or they are totally biased against him because he ended up at Mizzou; or both.
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:10 AM   #19
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I wouldn't say "tremendous support." IIRC, initially, his recruiting chops and MW ties were certainly acknowledged to be a "natural fit" for the post. But soon after, a lot of critics surfaced pointing out his less-than-stellar record, given the high-caliber players he recruited. And the debate went back and forth. In the end, he wasn't the top choice of the board vs other potential candidates.

But more important for this discussion, Underwood was not regarded as a potential candidate for almost all of this time. Given the near-universal acclaim the BU hire has received -- both here and elsewhere -- we can conclude that had he been one of the guys we were considering, he would have been much preferred vs Cuonzo, at that time.
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:23 AM   #20
Obelix
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I wouldn't say "tremendous support." IIRC, initially, his recruiting chops and MW ties were certainly acknowledged to be a "natural fit" for the post. But soon after, a lot of critics surfaced pointing out his less-than-stellar record, given the high-caliber players he recruited. And the debate went back and forth. In the end, he wasn't the top choice of the board vs other potential candidates.
Cuonzo received the most support, and as I said at the time, people who wanted Cuonzo secretly dreamed of recruits coming his way. That is exactly what is happening at Mizzou. He is a recruiter, a definite upgrade from their previous staff, and we will continue to battle with him on the recruiting trail. That's the extent of impact on the Illini, all the other discussion, e.g., how he does in the SEC, is kind of irrelevant.

As far as question and comparisons, these polls will be extremely biased if not asked at the right time.Who do you want, Brad Underwood, the new coach at Illinois or the hated villain who ended up at Mizzou and just stole Tilmon from us? Duh...
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:26 AM   #21
WesterveltVictoryCigar
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IMO Cuonzo did have a lot of support as a candidate here, especially early in the year when Cal was doing well. However once their season started heading downhill and they missed the NCAAs, he became much less viable as a candidate. It was difficult to see Whitman bringing him on board with his poor record of making the NCAAs when you just fired a coach for that very reason.
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:35 AM   #22
skyIdub
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Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
Cuonzo received the most support, and as I said at the time, people who wanted Cuonzo secretly dreamed of recruits coming his way. That is exactly what is happening at Mizzou. He is a recruiter, a definite upgrade from their previous staff, and we will continue to battle with him on the recruiting trail. That's the extent of impact on the Illini, all the other discussion, e.g., how he does in the SEC, is kind of irrelevant.

As far as question and comparisons, these polls will be extremely biased if not asked at the right time.Who do you want, Brad Underwood, the new coach at Illinois or the hated villain who ended up at Mizzou and just stole Tilmon from us? Duh...
Very true, (along with your previous post) and a good lesson that the bias can't be stunted with my plea of "try and be honest". Lol!
Oh well. It did finally start some good discussion, and I firmly believe if the question were asked at the proper time it would be more like 60-40 for BU/MS. Thanks for the input!
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:37 AM   #23
Obelix
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Originally Posted by WesterveltVictoryCigar View Post
IMO Cuonzo did have a lot of support as a candidate here, especially early in the year when Cal was doing well. However once their season started heading downhill and they missed the NCAAs, he became much less viable as a candidate. It was difficult to see Whitman bringing him on board with his poor record of making the NCAAs when you just fired a coach for that very reason.
I agree, that is why I said the evaluations were totally premature and biased. Cuonzo has been a HC for 9 years, if someone's perception was reversed in the last couple of months, it shows that their earlier evaluation/perception was rushed.

Cuonzo is who he is. His primary strength is recruiting, that has always been the case, even prior to the last couple of months at Cal. People tried to rationalize his other strengths, that is why I had said at the time that people "secretly" dreamed of recruits coming his way.

Bottom line is that we will continue to battle with him on the recruiting trail. This is not just Tilmon. Personally, I was not on the Cuonzo camp, not my choice, but at the same time, I think he can do relatively well with his recruiting. He is not as bad as biased opinions on Illini boards right now, not as good as earlier support he received on the same boards earlier this season. But he is a definite upgrade from Mizzou's previous staff.

Last edited by Obelix; May 16, 2017 at 07:44 AM.
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:40 AM   #24
skyIdub
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If it weren't for the phenomenal Asst. hires of OA and CC, I think the recruiting edge would have definitely gone to Martin. Much more even now.
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:58 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
Cuonzo Martin received tremendous support on this board as a perspective coach for the Illini throughout the entire season, the most out of any other candidate. Now, people are branding him as garbage, despite bringing in the #1 player in the country, Tilmon, Harris, etc. a very good class right from the get go. Martin has been a head coach for 9 years, so either people were totally premature in their admiration and evaluation of Martin, or they are totally biased against him because he ended up at Mizzou; or both.
I was excited about him at first (when we all figured Groce was gone), cooled on him after watching his team play a couple times, then went completely cold as I read more about his past stops/inability to win big with great talent.

This was especially true as we saw how Cal did down the stretch.

I'd say most logical posters followed a path similar to mine.

In regards to hating him now, that's ALL because he is Miznoz's coach. I thought he was subpar before that but he brought his subpardom to a school I hate so it makes it easier to wail on him.

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