A lot of speculation. Without the KBI report and without the KBI protocols, I cannot speculate on the motion.
TSJ Thread
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If I understand it correctly, TSJ’s lawyers are using their expert’s interpretation of the DNA evidence to argue that the state’s interpretation of the DNA evidence (which may or may not be different) should not be admitted as evidence because the sample sizes available fall well below the threshold of acceptable conclusions.
That is my question is well. I remember some early rumors where he admitted meeting her, but do any of the police reports contain such an alleged admission by TSJ?
It seems odd to argue that you can't call it male DNA in the underwear swabs because it's below the threshold and then in the 1.3, our expert is going to ignore all the thresholds the lab used and exclude TSJ. You can't have it both ways.
I don't think that is right, but it is certainly a plausible reading of what we have to date.
If I was the State's Attorney(or whatever Kansas calls them), I might argue that the sample sizes may be too small to ID TSJ, but that they are not too small to say that someone's male DNA was present. For TSJ, I would respond test it again. If the same test produces two different results, then the tests do not prove anything at all.
bdutts
- Houston, Texas
I know that people slough off cells at different rates but could it be possible that someone could penetrate with a finger and not slough off enough cells to be picked up by that test?
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
They have Shannon on camera at the scene as well (which I don't think TSJ denies, he was there), and the circumstances of the ID are pretty strong and generally supportive of the broad outline of the accuser's story.
They interacted after midnight in a crowded sweaty bar, very briefly, with her not knowing who he was, and she didn't like it. A long, long way to go to a rape conviction from there and they have zero physical evidence.
Her searching for the legal definition of sexual assault before she gave her story to police is another fact that to me both supports the notion that the interaction happened while also really being challenging for the prosecution given how the minute subtleties involved are incredibly legally important and they have no physical evidence to parse those subtleties. She knew the magic words to make the accusation stick.
Yes, anything is possible and any good DNA analyst would say that on the stand.
bdutts
- Houston, Texas
Then I wonder why the state didn't take any fingernail scrapings from him at the time they took the cheek swab. I would think that there would be a better chance of her DNA under/around his fingernails if there was penetration, even if he washed his hands (knowing how people wash their hands)...
Anyway, thanks for the insight, it's quite interesting.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Two 20-somethings meeting on a late-night dancefloor for less than a minute resulting in the girl getting upset about something no one else noticed, it's very easy for a juror to be convinced that TSJ was caddish and ungentlemanly and much MUCH more difficult to convince a juror that TSJ is a sex criminal.
Certain loud populations on social media do not draw a distinction between "caddish and ungentlemanly" and "rapist monster", but normal people on a jury very very VERY much do.
Now that we have a bit more information, that fundamental problem with the case comes more squarely into view. Not the nicest thing to talk about, but the reality of civilian jurors is what it is, to convict on a crime they want to see a criminal.
Certain loud populations on social media do not draw a distinction between "caddish and ungentlemanly" and "rapist monster", but normal people on a jury very very VERY much do.
Now that we have a bit more information, that fundamental problem with the case comes more squarely into view. Not the nicest thing to talk about, but the reality of civilian jurors is what it is, to convict on a crime they want to see a criminal.
They took the cheek swab in CU, long after the night in the bar.
bdutts
- Houston, Texas
Ah thanks, ok. I thought he submitted a DNA sample the next day.
We don't actually know -- or have evidence documenting -- whether the accuser and the accused interacted, at least based on what has been made public so far. We have the accuser's story and then we have evidence that the two individuals were in the same general part of a bar at the same time, but that's not evidence of an interaction. Most of us go to bars all the time and stand/sit within a handful of feet from random people and never say anything to those people, touch them, etc.
I don't want to suggest the accuser is lying -- they very well might've interacted, and it could've been just as she said -- but there is no documentary evidence (video, photo) of the interaction, seemingly no eyewitnesses of the interaction (that are public at least), and now it appears that there is no reliable DNA evidence of an interaction.
Just to change the topic a bit, should TJ be found not guilty, it's my humble opinion that any student organization--student section, band, etc--that participated in taunting TJ should be suspended for their next home game against Illinois. Individuals can't be suspended or otherwise punished, but if fraternities or residence hall units can be put on social probation, student groups can be as well. Any university that doesn't want to have its students having participated in a lynch mob action against a black man and wishes to retain at least an aura of integrity would do so.
Yeah, it won't happen. But it should.
Yeah, it won't happen. But it should.
It doesn't.
From my understanding, that is not an agreed upon fact and only the accusers side of the story. If I recall correctly, TSJ after being shown a picture of the accuser claimed he did not know who she was and that they did not have contact. And while yes, it can be proved the TSJ and the accuser were in the same room of the bar when the alleged event occurred, as of yet there has been no release of a statement by anyone corroborating that they actually had contact. Her friend is the closest released so far, but she just stated she saw her friend moving in that general direction before she herself left the room.
It would be pretty much impossible for TSJ to prove his innocence in this case, but that's why that isn't a prerequisite of our legal system. It's extremely extremely difficult to prove you didn't do something. This case absolutely reeks of reasonable doubt though.
Is it possible that this motion by TSJ's lawyers is partly/mostly an attempt to force the prosecution to show its cards a bit?
Well we are talking about two different things right? The exclusion is made by TSJ's hired DNA expert in their report. They will be a defense witness. They are trying not allow at least parts of the KBI report.
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ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Totally, and that is one doubt among many in this case, which have the cumulative effect of making the state's case weaker and weaker.
But if the entire thing turned on whether the accuser correctly ID'ed TSJ as the person she'd interacted with, I would be extremely worried, because I think the ID piece of it is fairly strong.
It's the rest of it that they just don't have anything beyond the accuser's word for, and we also know the accuser knew the threshold to make this a criminal matter.
People don't like the way these kinds of cases used to get handled, with some justification because it often made men impervious to consequences in cases like this. But part of the thinking is that it was likely to put the accuser through some very difficult and accusatory experiences only to lose the case anyway. That's true here for sure.
Which casts doubt on whether it happened, though it also casts doubt on whether this apparently wordless encounter of less than a minute was remarkable enough to be remembered.
If you've ever seen the basketball team hang out at Kams or [bar names that would out me as super old], repeated brief interactions with random people is the nature of their social world.
Plus god knows his sobriety level at the time. Which does not paint him as an upstanding gentleman, but the gulf between that and sex criminal is colossal and the state has nothing to bridge that gap.
Right. There's just nothing concrete about any part of it. TSJ's DNA on her genitals would have changed everything, but it isn't there.
Yes.
I know the accuser has said she didn't have much to drink, but it'll be interesting to see if this is verified or contridicted by others (bartender, other students, etc). Most people, when asked, will say they didn't have much to drink, but that is often a great exaggeration. I would think her sobriety level would be key in determing whether she was fully aware of what was happening and who she identified.
She was 18 at the time, so it would be doubtful that anybody would be open to discussing her alcohol consumption, especially a bar employee.
That certainly complicates matters.
Mr. Tibbs
- southeast DuPage
at age 18, she has no legal business being in a bar , or the bar area of a restaurant.
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