Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (March 2017)

[Deleted member 236589]

Matter of semantics, what I meant by first year, was Groce's 1st year roster. Basically, he swapped out Orris for McLaurin. I think we will see BU do more changes with his "1st" year roster.
Regarding, Groce's "2nd" year roster, he was very active by not renewing scholarships for Ibby, Langford, Shaw and Henry.

Groce inherited a tournament team and he was successful with the team he inherited. One brutal call from being in the Sweet 16. It was a team with size, talent and a super stud scorer. After that, I give him credit for swinging for the fences with high profile recruits, but when he missed....the issues started. Bad class balance, average talent and here we are.

Underwood is inheriting a mess and is completely reliant on an assistant to make 2017-2018 salvageable. If that class doesn't come through....he has 75% of the previous year's production gone, no senior leadership, no size, no depth...next year will be a train wreck and will be reliant on a major coup for 2018.

Two totally different scenarios.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

Underwood is inheriting a mess and is completely reliant on an assistant to make 2017-2018 salvageable. If that class doesn't come through....he has 75% of the previous year's production gone, no senior leadership, no size, no depth...next year will be a train wreck and will be reliant on a major coup for 2018.

Everyone here is (somehow) quickly forgetting what a difference good coaching can make.

 

[RedRocksIllini]

Everyone here is (somehow) quickly forgetting what a difference good coaching can make.

+1

Maybe the problem is that it's been so long since we've seen any.

 

[Deleted member 236589]

Everyone here is (somehow) quickly forgetting what a difference good coaching can make.

You can have John Wooden on the sideline, but if you don't have any size and you have poor guard play, you're not going to win. End of story. A great coach can get the most from what they have, but if what they have is utterly incomplete...the results are going to be subpar.

Our roster, less Hill, has been subpar. We have no interior presence, our PG play(prior to Lucas) was atrocious and we have no players that can create their own shot in crunch time. Worse yet....we had a stretch where 2 or 3 players had disciplinary issues and were either released or suspended.

When Groce took over, he had an awful lot to work with. Paul, Egwu, Richardson....senior leadership. There was something to work with. These last few years, not so much.

This past team with Darius Paul and Kendrick Nunn....is SIGNIFICANTLY better, probably a tournament team and Groce is most likely the head coach.

 

[BuddyJ]

Underwood is inheriting a mess and is completely reliant on an assistant to make 2017-2018 salvageable. If that class doesn't come through....he has 75% of the previous year's production gone, no senior leadership, no size, no depth...next year will be a train wreck and will be reliant on a major coup for 2018.

Two totally different scenarios.

If we compare year 1, then yes, Groce inherited a better situation. But the year 2 situation looks way, way better for Underwood. Its only a mess if we lose the incoming class.

JCL, TJL, Black, Finke are all around two more years and are proven B1G players that will be around 2+ years. Not elite, but they all belong in the conference. Groce had how many players who proved it in a P5 conference? Egwu and... Betrand? Rice was a beast but he was far from proven going into the season. No rising sophomores on the team either due to the mess he inherited. His year 1 team was GREAT (though we should remember the same team missed the NCAA tournament, and lost a lottery pick) but after that the cupboard was completely bare.

 

[Deleted member 236589]

Everyone here is (somehow) quickly forgetting what a difference good coaching can make.

If there is no Tilmon, with the loss of Morgan....we're going to get murdered in the paint. Can Underwood coach height or lack of depth?

With no Hill, where is that scoring going to come from?

As currently constructed, this team is completely one dimensional, with no size and no young talent to develop.

If Walker can bring these kids home.....that changes things significantly. If not, I don't care who's on the sideline.

 

[Obelix]

It was a team with size, talent and a super stud scorer.

Outside of Brandon Paul, and even with Paul, this is not a team that you would praise on talent based on B1G standards. And no offense to Paul, but people use the words "studs" and "super studs" very liberally. Paul was a very good player, but far from a super stud by B1G/P5 standards.

Bad class balance, average talent and here we are.

I think class balance is one of the most overrated attributes that people attach to basketball teams. IMO, class balance is kind of irrelevant.

 

[Deleted member 236589]

I think class balance is one of the most overrated attributes that people attach to basketball teams. IMO, class balance is kind of irrelevant.

They don't have a Senior Class this year, they have no big man and a log jam at the guard position. It's an issue.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

If there is no Tilmon

If there is no Tilmon we've got bigger problems than next year's roster.

Let's figure out that answer and go from there.

But regardless, to call this situation a "mess" is to do a great disservice to situations like what Tom Crean got at Indiana or what Chris Mullin got at St. Johns or what Mike Hopkins is taking over at Washington.

Underwood is getting a roster full of good kids with a few genuine talents in the bunch. When you take over for a guy who got fired, that's beating the spread.

 

[Epsilon]

Everyone here is (somehow) quickly forgetting what a difference good coaching can make.

Agreed. And here's to hoping we don't have to worry about a whole freakin season hanging on one blown call anymore.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

You can have John Wooden on the sideline, but if you don't have any size and you have poor guard play, you're not going to win. End of story.

I don't disagree, but we also spent most of this year getting turnstiled on defense and with erratic to poor guard play.

This past team with Darius Paul and Kendrick Nunn....is SIGNIFICANTLY better, probably a tournament team and Groce is most likely the head coach.

With no Hill, where is that scoring going to come from?

As a start, hopefully not from excruciatingly low-percentage shots.

 

[Obelix]

They don't have a Senior Class this year, they have no big man and a log jam at the guard position. It's an issue.

Positional balance is a problem, but out recruiting class includes Tilmon, who is one of the best big man (I assume you mean true C, because PF are also referred to as bigs). But if a player transfers on opts out of LOI, that is hardly the departing coach's fault.

Class balance refers to classification (i.e., seniors, juniors, etc.). If the talent is there, their classification, especially when it comes to juniors and even sophomores is less important. The vast majority of difference makers in college basketball are not seniors in our days.

 

[Epsilon]

If there is no Tilmon we've got bigger problems than next year's roster.

Let's figure out that answer and go from there.

But regardless, to call this situation a "mess" is to do a great disservice to situations like what Tom Crean got at Indiana or what Chris Mullin got at St. Johns or what Mike Hopkins is taking over at Washington.

Underwood is getting a roster full of good kids with a few genuine talents in the bunch. When you take over for a guy who got fired, that's beating the spread.

Yeah people keep thinking we got a bad roster. We have high major D1 talent in the team at the least. With good coaching let's see what these kids can really do. Imho our disfunction was a coaching issue not a player talent issue. With six seniors graduating, roster management is a little bit on the precarious side but this is not a dumpster fire and I don't think any players need to be Creaned like last time.

 

[FiveStar]

If there is no Tilmon, with the loss of Morgan....we're going to get murdered in the paint. Can Underwood coach height or lack of depth?

I seem to have forgotten, how many tournament games did BU win with overmatched rosters @ SFA?

 

[Obelix]

In regards to Paul, he single handedly beat Gonzaga by putting in what, 40? He was consistently able to get big baskets late in games(or got to the foul line), he was a go to guy who could most definitely finish at the rim....

Richardson was a Big Ten quality scorer/shooter and was a responsible shooter, who fit with what they were trying to do.

Egwu was a good low post scorer, not sensational, but better than anything they have now. On the defensive side, he most definitely needed to be accounted for.

Griffey was another guy who had a nastiness about him, hit huge shots and fit well in conjunction with the rest of the roster.

Abrams, where he was a mandatory scorer/playmaker this year, was just a complimentary piece to the puzzle.

That was a team that got better and better as the season wore on. They won at Gonzaga, beat the #1 team in the country in Groce's biggest win by far, they won a first round NCAA game and again....got hosed in the second round.

Groce did a really good job his first year, overachieved, took a team that had done terribly and had just lost Leonard to the NBA to NCAA and came a really bad call short from the opportunity to complete for S16. Nobody was predicting that, and people saying otherwise are revisionist theorists at best.

But again, that was not team that you would praise on talent based on B1G standards. Far from it. And while Paul was a very good player, he does not fit the description of "super stud" in B1G/P5 basketball.

 

[poor dirt farmer]

I wish people could watch our team without being blinded by bias. Grateful for the young men we have but if you look at them next to top 25 quality D1 teams they are lacking.

 

[Deleted member 236589]

Positional balance is a problem, but out recruiting class includes Tilmon, who is one of the best big man (I assume you mean true C, because PF are also referred to as bigs). But if a player transfers on opts out of LOI, that is hardly the departing coach's fault.

Class balance refers to classification (i.e., seniors, juniors, etc.). If the talent is there, their classification, especially when it comes to juniors and even sophomores is less important. The vast majority of difference makers in college basketball are not seniors in our days.

Now let me be clear, I am making my comments based on the potential that this Freshman class falls through, as that is where this whole bonanza started, two pages ago. If he IS ABLE to acquire the full stable of recruits, this is a different ballgame all together. Completely different story.

If he inherits the current roster PLUS the full 2017 class, then he does have a legitimate big to work with, he has depth....he has talent he can mold around what he currently has.

This all started based on Walker's ability to bring that talent home and if he could not, then Underwood would be inheriting a mess, as he'd be chasing transfers, having to basically start over again in 2018.

We were comparing apples to oranges. Apples to apples, with the assumption that everything stays status quo and we have our full class coming in, I like Underwood's situation much better because he doesn't have to retool after year 1 AND there will be significant development by December due to the amount of young talent.

 

[Obelix]

I wish people could watch our team without being blinded by bias. Grateful for the young men we have but if you look at them next to top 25 quality D1 teams they are lacking.

I agree, this year for sure. But in order to evaluate next year's team, we need to first see who will be on the roster. With some good additions, next year's team could be more talented. Not experienced, but possibly more talented. So let's see the roster first.

 

[Epsilon]

I wish people could watch our team without being blinded by bias. Grateful for the young men we have but if you look at them next to top 25 quality D1 teams they are lacking.

Saying that we have competent players for our conference and that it is not a dumpster fire is not equal to saying we have great talent. We have gaps to fill, undoubtedly, but I'm not giving the new coach a free pass this year, since I think we will have enough tools to be competitive - with good coaching.

 

[UofIChE06]

Now let me be clear, I am making my comments based on the potential that this Freshman class falls through, as that is where this whole bonanza started, two pages ago. If he IS ABLE to acquire the full stable of recruits, this is a different ballgame all together. Completely different story.

If he inherits the current roster PLUS the full 2017 class, then he does have a legitimate big to work with, he has depth....he has talent he can mold around what he currently has.

This all started based on Walker's ability to bring that talent home and if he could not, then Underwood would be inheriting a mess, as he'd be chasing transfers, having to basically start over again in 2018.

We were comparing apples to oranges. Apples to apples, with the assumption that everything stays status quo and we have our full class coming in, I like Underwood's situation much better because he doesn't have to retool after year 1 AND there will be significant development by December due to the amount of young talent.

Gotta say... no kidding there are issues without the incoming class. There are 6! roster openings. I wouldn't expect many rosters to be free of holes with that many openings with respect to who is returning. The fact is the team has a solid PG with another possibly better one definitely coming in, a dead eye 3pt shooter (not dissimilar from DJ Rich), a top 40 PF that rebounds like a dog with a bone, and a serviceable stretch big. That doesn't include the unknowns in DJ Wil, AJ, or to a lesser extent Kipper.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

That doesn't include the unknowns in DJ Wil, AJ, or to a lesser extent Kipper.

Kipper is gonna be awesome in this system, just you wait.

 

[youlikeroses]

Am I missing it or has there been any updates or news about Javon's visit with Coach Underwood?

 

[redwingillini11]

Am I missing it or has there been any updates or news about Javon's visit with Coach Underwood?

Yeah whoever was peeking in through the window pls give us an update

 

[Burt Toast]

I seem to have forgotten, how many tournament games did BU win with overmatched rosters @ SFA?

This!!!! The difference is regardless of roster talent, this current team has more potential athletically and skill-wise than any of BUs SFA teams. They showed that they could play with anybody-successfully playing small ball with 4 guards and a Big at Both schools! I would bet one of my beach houses- next years team will have a better offensive efficiency and score more points per game than our team this year!

As for the concerns of not having a player that can create their own shot, BUs offense is predicated on creating open shot opportunities and layups vs the John Groce - late in the shot clock clear outs. We will not have to rely as much on a guy's ability to create his own shot as much as years past. And I also think we are underestimating our guys abilities due to the fact we relied on Malcolm Hill so much. This will be a better team because of that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Illinoise]

Kipper is gonna be awesome in this system, just you wait.

Said it before and I'll say it again. Nichols just might be the best player on this team next year. Granted I don't think they will be very good but I like what Ive seen from him. Lineup of Black, Nichols, Lucas, Frazier and Lands would fit this new offense well. I like Finke but I don't see this as a good fit for him. Whoever your "big" is has to screen and rebound. That's a much better fit for Black than Finke.