Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (February 2019)

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#377      

sacraig

The desert
I'd be afraid Giorgi might break him

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#378      
Loyalty: All this weightlifting is making our players too bulky and slow.

Also Loyalty: That kid needs to put on weight via greasy cheeseburgers.

I have vehemently defended Fletch, his program, and how silly the weightlifting arguments have been on here. I maintain Fletch knows what he's doing and is not hindering our players in anyway. I also maintain that boy needs a cheeseburger.
 
#380      
I have vehemently defended Fletch, his program, and how silly the weightlifting arguments have been on here. I maintain Fletch knows what he's doing and is not hindering our players in anyway. I also maintain that boy needs a cheeseburger.

I laugh every time I see someone comment about a basketball player being "too bulky and slow". If a basketball player is too slow, it has nothing to do with muscle put on because of a strength and conditioning program. The kid is probably just slow to begin with. Look at all of the football players every year that pack on muscle and get faster.

It has to be so difficult to be a basketball S&C Coach. I would imagine most if not all of the players don't have any basic fundamental techniques that football players have going into Freshmen year. I think Coach Fletcher is doing an amazing job. Just looking at physical appearance alone compared to other teams. Our players look like leaner.
 
#381      
I laugh every time I see someone comment about a basketball player being "too bulky and slow". If a basketball player is too slow, it has nothing to do with muscle put on because of a strength and conditioning program. The kid is probably just slow to begin with. Look at all of the football players every year that pack on muscle and get faster.

It has to be so difficult to be a basketball S&C Coach. I would imagine most if not all of the players don't have any basic fundamental techniques that football players have going into Freshmen year. I think Coach Fletcher is doing an amazing job. Just looking at physical appearance alone compared to other teams. Our players look like leaner.

Those people like to pretend that Zion Williamson doesn't exist. His size doesn't seem to affect his athleticism.
 
#383      

haasi

New York
I laugh every time I see someone comment about a basketball player being "too bulky and slow". If a basketball player is too slow, it has nothing to do with muscle put on because of a strength and conditioning program. The kid is probably just slow to begin with. Look at all of the football players every year that pack on muscle and get faster.

It has to be so difficult to be a basketball S&C Coach. I would imagine most if not all of the players don't have any basic fundamental techniques that football players have going into Freshmen year. I think Coach Fletcher is doing an amazing job. Just looking at physical appearance alone compared to other teams. Our players look like leaner.


What you want to see is players get quicker/nimbler, stronger, jump higher and faster, and stay healthy. We are definitely seeing players get stronger, as reflected in their appearance - not sure about the rest. That’s the source of criticism. We hear about increased verticals but haven’t seen much evidence on the court, except maybe AJ’s awesome dunk in traffic the other day (wow). I don’t think I’ve seen our players get substantially quicker- which is huge.

Definitely not an easy job. Fletch is certainly doing a decent job based on gains in the strength department alone, but I don’t know if he is doing an A+ job- and I think the push back comes in because people are over weighting the significance of strength gains without the rest.
 
#384      

sacraig

The desert
What you want to see is players get quicker/nimbler, stronger, jump higher and faster, and stay healthy. We are definitely seeing players get stronger, as reflected in their appearance - not sure about the rest. That’s the source of criticism. We hear about increased verticals but haven’t seen much evidence on the court, except maybe AJ’s awesome dunk in traffic the other day (wow). I don’t think I’ve seen our players get substantially quicker- which is huge.

Definitely not an easy job. Fletch is certainly doing a decent job based on gains in the strength department alone, but I don’t know if he is doing an A+ job- and I think the push back comes in because people are over weighting the significance of strength gains without the rest.

We are seeing them get stronger (we are doing a much better job of finishing at the rim and rebounding this year, for a few examples).
We are seeing them jump higher (assuming you believe the statements made by the program over the summer about verticals).
We are seeing them stay healthier (think about the injury bug that plagued us, especially in Groce's early years, compared to now).
I won't comment on quickness or speed because I don't know how I'd measure that from watching them on TV.

About the only thing people like to complain about is that our shooting hasn't been very good, and the S&C program is a convenient scapegoat for them.
 
#385      

Deleted member 500209

D
Guest
I'm pretty sure us Illinois fans are not an authority on 5* bigs, so all this speculation on Kofi, good or negative is silly. It will be nice to see the Illini being the aggressor down low rather than being dunked on. Illinois is on the rise, it's ok to enjoy it, now let's go get Christian Brown: )
I have thoroughly enjoyed watching Adonis win the physical battles and mentally breaking down bigs like Fernando and Ward. Even when he just traded fouls with them, we won those battle. Looking forward to Kofi taking up space. I saw the ESPN games, so the enthusiasm is tempered, but at the same time, I have full confidence he won’t get pushed around by too many humans.
 
#386      
What you want to see is players get quicker/nimbler, stronger, jump higher and faster, and stay healthy. We are definitely seeing players get stronger, as reflected in their appearance - not sure about the rest. That’s the source of criticism. We hear about increased verticals but haven’t seen much evidence on the court, except maybe AJ’s awesome dunk in traffic the other day (wow). I don’t think I’ve seen our players get substantially quicker- which is huge.

Definitely not an easy job. Fletch is certainly doing a decent job based on gains in the strength department alone, but I don’t know if he is doing an A+ job- and I think the push back comes in because people are over weighting the significance of strength gains without the rest.
Everyone forget why we got Fletch when 60% of our starters were out with injuries. That would be priority one.
 
#387      

haasi

New York
We are seeing them get stronger (we are doing a much better job of finishing at the rim and rebounding this year, for a few examples).
We are seeing them jump higher (assuming you believe the statements made by the program over the summer about verticals).
We are seeing them stay healthier (think about the injury bug that plagued us, especially in Groce's early years, compared to now).
I won't comment on quickness or speed because I don't know how I'd measure that from watching them on TV.

About the only thing people like to complain about is that our shooting hasn't been very good, and the S&C program is a convenient scapegoat for them.
Stronger - agree.

Jumping - not sure Ive seen the offseason reports translate into anything meaningful.

Health- plenty of injuries during fletch’s tenure. Probably less than before, but not sure about that. So far so good this year, thankfully. And ADLR has made very nice progress coming back.

Quickness- agree- hard to say. But certainly haven’t noticed guys coming in a little slow footed and having a transformation.

Shooting- agree. Ridiculous to put that on fletch. Adding bulk can hurt shooting if you don’t keep your shooting training up as you weight train, but fletch isn’t to blame for shooting woes. If his strength training is somehow impeding shooting, it’s the staff’s job to notice that and have fletch make changes. Fletch isn’t the shooting coach.
 
#388      
What you want to see is players get quicker/nimbler, stronger, jump higher and faster, and stay healthy. We are definitely seeing players get stronger, as reflected in their appearance - not sure about the rest. That’s the source of criticism. We hear about increased verticals but haven’t seen much evidence on the court, except maybe AJ’s awesome dunk in traffic the other day (wow). I don’t think I’ve seen our players get substantially quicker- which is huge.

Definitely not an easy job. Fletch is certainly doing a decent job based on gains in the strength department alone, but I don’t know if he is doing an A+ job- and I think the push back comes in because people are over weighting the significance of strength gains without the rest.
No S&C coach is going to make his athletes significantly quicker or jump higher in games (other than maybe an overweight player that slims down). S&C programs can make marginal improvements in speed, quickness and jumping ability (and you do whatever you can to get better), but they’re not going to transform a guard into Dee Brown (speed/quickness) or Derrick Rose (dunking ability pre-injuries). Anyone looking for significant athletic improvements that show up in games is going to be disappointed.
 
#389      
Everyone forget why we got Fletch when 60% of our starters were out with injuries. That would be priority one.
Completely agree with this and this metric is far easier to quantify. It seems to me the “Fletch May be wearing our players down with the strength and conditioning” when we were having a poor shooting stretch. While this is possible, it’s much more telling to measure things over the course of an entire season, I.e.,we have managed to remain healthy all year. This would seem to support the notion that Fletch is doing something right. We have had nights where our shooting was hot and when our shooting was cold. I’m not sure what inference you could make about that other than it’s a typical season...
 
#392      
Alexander was and is more athletic than okafor. With prospects people like potential and guys like Alexander and Tseibwe ooze potential. They are high risk ultra high reward. Guys like okafor and cockburn are known producers. You know what you are going to get with them. The risk is lower and the ceiling is as well. They are still really really good.
If I recall correctly, Hendrickson polled college coaches in 2013 and the overwhelming majority said they would pick Okafor over Alexander. I think the post you replied to had some revisionist history.

However, the Okafor-Alexander comparison and the Cockburn-Tseibwe comparisons are not analogous. There’s a big difference between Okafor (no. 1 recruit in his class) and Cockburn (high 4 star recruit). With Okafor, the immediate production was much more assured than with Cockburn. Also, Alexander was only about 6’8” and undersized for a center with no outside offensive game (though he did have great athleticism). I believe Tseibwe is 6’10” (I could be mistaken), which is more ideal for a rim protector. I think Tseibwe’s immediate defensive contributions as a rim protector and glass eater are likely to exceed Cockburn’s immediate offensive contributions. I also think it’s easier to integrate Tseibwe into an offense despite his possible skill limitations than it is to integrate Cockburn into a high pressure man to man defense. All this is to say that I dont think the risk with Cockburn is as low as you make it out to be.
 
#394      
Great cheer though: Trent-Tevian--Ayo Prince Giorgi
 
#395      

Retro62

North Bethesda, Maryland
The Kofi talk seems to be tepid from many posters, and I understand it to an extent..high expectations can lead to frustration when they don't materialize. He may not be another Giorgi, who blossoms immediately, but we never expected that from Giorgi. Even though Giorgi deserves a ton of credit for working so hard to become an immediate impact player, we have to acknowledge that he has obviously gotten some very good coaching. Kofi will get the same, and I can't imagine him not being a real boon to the team right away.
 
#398      

Retro62

North Bethesda, Maryland
Who can I pay to start a separate strength and conditioning thread to keep it out of the recruiting thread? Mother of god, people.

Just to be clear, I was referring to OA's and BU's coaching, not Fletch. I understand you're frustration with the S&C talk.
 
#399      
Who can I pay to start a separate strength and conditioning thread to keep it out of the recruiting thread? Mother of god, people.

I know I kind of started it and I want it to stop. I apologize. Such a pointless argument that none of us actually know anything about.

I haven't been paying attention much to the Terrance Shannon recruiting trail recently. Are we expecting/hoping to finish up the class with him?
 
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