What has he done with the team offensively or defensively that has been great? I do think he runs a slightly better offensive scheme than BW ever did but that isn't saying much and our lack of shooting discipline is a killer when you have so many other deficiencies. Defensively I think he does a decent job of coaching team defense but a lousy job of coaching individual defensive fundamentals. Add to that an apparent inability to identify big man talent and create a balanced roster, I'm just curious if there is any substance behind your support?
John Groce at Illinois
- Status
What has he done with the team offensively or defensively that has been great? I do think he runs a slightly better offensive scheme than BW ever did but that isn't saying much and our lack of shooting discipline is a killer when you have so many other deficiencies. Defensively I think he does a decent job of coaching team defense but a lousy job of coaching individual defensive fundamentals. Add to that an apparent inability to identify big man talent and create a balanced roster, I'm just curious if there is any substance behind your support?
I just think that he has proven that he can coach good team defense. Obviously that is not the case this year with the freshmen being out and us having no rim protector, but I believe this year the offense scheme is better; there is more movement and Groce has adjusted a little. I don't know exact numbers but I believe the offense this year is a lot better than last years
IMHO, what has Groce done great with this team is the wrong question, with our roster and injuries this year I don't think great has been an option. Pull this team together & make the tourney and we should knight him. I think he did a great job with team during 1st year, 2nd year was good/solid with only 3 returning players, 3rd year was a disaster where we quit at the end. Seems like he has done a great job identifying talent, we have just have missed too much at 1 & 5. Recruiting wise, year 1 was a success under the circumstances, Hill & Nunn good; My opinion, Tate, Colbert, & Mav were taking best available to us that late in the game. Year 2, Finke & Black look like wins, year 3 freshman look like a great class. 2016, we finally get another pg and add Kipper + ?. On the 1 side, we hit on one of Jackson, Snider, Brunson, or Evans ( or even Nic Moore) and we are feeling pretty good right now. On bigs, we have had enough good targets, just largely struck out as well. In hind sight it is easy to say we should have went after easier/better targets...but if you buy that we shouldn't have been chasing Black & JCL either.
Wasn't it just last game that Shon Morris, and whoever the other guy was, were praising Groce for the job he's done with our injury riddled team? Continuously bashing Groce for the performance of a team missing 3 starters and a key back up is ridiculous. We start two freshmen because of it and are forced to play 2 more freshmen and a walk on. Not to mention Tate is just now getting fully healthy from his hand injury. I don't get how how people continuously forget this and then bash the team and Groce. The future looks bright.
I, for one, did not think he exceeded expectations his first year. That team had talent and should have at a minimum made the NCAA's. Weber was fired because he missed the tourney the year before with that team. Since then, the team has gone down hill. The team plays horrible defense and has major holes in it. Yes, injuries are an issue. But, according to posts on the football page, that is no excuse.
Fact is TA shouldn't have been on this team. So he doesn't count. He is lucky a player such as Thorne was available and he grabbed him. But, if Thorne wasn't, we would be right where we are. I like Black and company and I think TJL is going to be good for us.
But, he may not survive this season as it will be three years in a row and no expert is going to pick us to make the tourney next year. He better learn quick to recruit the state of Illinois and not always the stars. Guys like Gill and Bardo were unknowns in recruiting circles. Henson knew Illinois is the Texas of high school basketball and he made his living here. That is the last time we were consistently in the top 25 for a long stretch. That wasn't just a Groce thing either. Weber never learned it as well. He better before it is to late.
I will keep saying that Groce's fate doesn't reside with this year or next year. His future will be determined by the 2017 recruiting class. If he whiffs on Williams, Finke, etc. and doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat, that will seal the deal. At this point, he's been close in recruiting some difference makers and gotten a couple good/really good ones (Black, Nunn, Finke). The 2017 class is loaded and getting close won't be good enough. And the injuries can't be an excuse at some point- surely we can't continue to have the same bad luck. So if injuries clear up and there isn't vast hope on the horizon, that will spell the end.
Finke is a 2018 recruit.
Just don't see it that way. If this season tanks, which appears likely, and the following season tanks, there will be no great 2017 class. You cannot keep a guy that missed the tourney four years in a row with hopes the 2017 class turns it around. In most circles, he would be gone after this season. The AD situation may save him another year. He better hope TJL can come in and play well.
Really?, you had high expectations for year 1 then. Lost Leonard from a team that didn't make the tournament, Egwu at center was a huge question mark, Abrams the only pg, Paul was largely untapped potential, DJ, Griffey, McLaurin nice role players... and we were a play or a bad call from taking down a 2 seed to make the sweet 16.
Your right TA shouldn't have been on this team, but if he wasn't you have one more scholarship to go out and find another pg or big...so you can't dismiss him either. Thorne was a great pick up, if he had stayed healthy, but if we hadn't gotten him again we likely would have gotten someone with that scholarship.
Missing the tournament 3 years in a row is a disaster and Groce needs to turn that around, but this is the direction Webber had us headed after 2009 class graduated, with 2010 class not lasting, 2011 class with too much dead weight, and no 2012 class. Groce hasn't turned the ship around on the court and at some point excuses need to end, but we also have had what looks like some extremely bad luck this year with injuries, recruiting wise at pg, transfers who haven't panned out...I still think he can get us there, but it is and will get harder to recruit without some on court success.
True, but if Groce were able to secure an early commit from him this summer, that would certainly help his chances. Of course, Finke's probably going to wait until the following summer, but you never know.
The 2017 class will have signed before next season starts, so next year's performance won't have an impact on it.
PaytonHighstep
- Downers Grove, IL
Unless they wait until the Spring signing period, which could happen with some of the Illini targets.
Tilmon might wait until the spring, but we'll have a pretty good idea what the class is going to be by the end of the early signing period.
Much of 2017 class will commit before next season plays out, so mostly it will be this season to impress 2017 class. But I think you are right in 2017 class not making the difference in Groce's future. Groce may be able to pull off a great 2017 class that will convince someone to keep him around another year or we may not even have an AD by then the way we are going. But personally I expect 2017 class will be somewhere in the middle, we will get a good class based on size & what is available in the state, but won't pull off the super class that is being speculated...which leaves his future in how next year goes. If he survives next year, then 2017/8 becomes a significant hurdle as we are trying to replace Nunn, Hill, Tate, Mav, Abrams, and maybe Thorne; so we will need to find some help at Big and TJL to be ready as a sophomore or count on freshman to plug the ongoing holes at 1 & 5.
If this season existed on an island, sure, but this will most likely be our third tournament miss in a row. Make the tournament last year, and/or the year before, and the program could still have enough momentum to get through an injury-plagued season. Close on a couple of those recruits that turned into our giant pile of silver medals, ditto.
This isn't only about this season. It's about his full body of work, and so far, 3/4 of the seasons aren't acceptable. We've been ranked for exactly two one-week stretches in the last 2-1/2 years. At this point, do you still see Groce getting us back to the level we want to be at - playing huge games like we saw KU/OU play last night, winning the Big Ten, being nationally relevant, and getting back to the national title game to maybe win one this time? I did once, but I don't anymore.
While I would agree that the best chance at long term success is to pay the price to hire a "premier coach", the above isn't necessarily true. After all, we did hire Bill Self from Tulsa.
I like Groce but year one he was 8-10 in the B1G and we were a bubble team. Only won 2 more conference games than the year before. Just saying that maybe the last two years have been so bad it's clouded our memory a little. I hope he sticks around but the bar definitely needs to be raised.
Inability to create a balanced roster?
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
I'm sorry but this whole "Abrams shouldn't be here" thing just really gets me angry. So it's somehow Groces fault that a guy hs sustained two major, season-ending injuries? I can guarantee you that Groce wishes he wasn't here because that means he would have been able to help last year or the year before when we really could has used TA. That argument is completely ridiculous to me.
Also, now we're going to start calling Groce lucky for getting Thorne? I'm guessing they'll be some caveat as to why Groce lucked into him coming here instead of UK or KU too?
Sorry for the rant, Dan, but this just really sets me off when I hear comments like that.
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
We WERE lucky to get Thorne. Now, is getting lucky every now and again part of how it goes in recruiting? Yeah. But people treating the Thorne injury as if it derailed some master plan sound ridiculous.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
Most indicators to the contrary this season. Defense is the most frustrating thing to me right now. We're all well aware that demands are being made of guys who should be further down the depth chart, but (and I will admit to not having been able to watch the tOSU game) I've not seen effort and hustle on the defensive end the majority of games this year.
Just to be clear, I'm not referring to our guys being a step slower or not having the height and length, I'm talking about guys not talking, not hustling, getting lost on switches, and not even trying for rebounding position. Maybe that was better on Sunday, I don't know, but the box score doesn't indicate significant progress--no blocked shots, we got out-rebounded 42-33, and had only 2 steals.
Right now we're last in the B1G in rebounding, 9th in steals, and last in blocked shots. Defense wins games in the B1G. Offense keeps you in it, and it looks like that was the case on Sunday, but Defense wins.
Groce is 24-32 in the B1G early in his 4th year....at some point results are what they are. Meeting expectations not excuses are what get you hired/fired in the world. There is nothing wrong with the fan base wanting better results. I still watch and cheer the guys on every game.
TownieMatt
CU Expat
- Chicago
I think Groce finds himself at the helm of a program that's struggling to adapt to a new identity. Historically, Illinois is one of the best programs in the B1G and likely a top 20 program nationally. But in the last decade or so, we've seen Illinois lose ground to programs like Ohio State, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan and Michigan State. We're no longer in a position to say we're stronger than those schools moving forward. Of course, it's difficult for fans to accept that, which results in expectations for a coach that are somewhat unrealistic.
I really believe that what a program like ours needs most is stability. I also see no reason that Groce shouldn't be the coach to provide that stability. We all know the difficult cards this team has been dealt this season, so there's no need to regurgitate that here. But taking a wider view of the state of the program, there are real reasons for optimism moving forward under Groce:
- The current roster has a ton of young talent, and Groce has to get credit for that. I think Jordan, JCL, and Finke (especially) have shown they could be very good college basketball players before their careers are over at Illinois. Sure we've been the bridesmaid in recruiting more than we'd like, but the recruits Groce has landed are showing promise. Groce needs to be given the chance to continue their progression.
- With the Farm project now finally coming together, Groce can begin to pitch to recruits a state-of-the-art facility to recruits. I'm not sure how much fans realize the importance of facilities, but it's a really big deal, and we've been significantly behind the curve for around a decade.
- There's an enormous opportunity in the 2017 recruiting class. What makes this class unique from a UI prospective isn't just the depth of prospects, but the number of prospects from outside the Chicago area. If you include Tilmon (since he's still from Illinois), it's easy to argue that 3 of the state's top 5 players are from outside Chicagoland (Tilmon, Williams, and Goodwin). That's very rare. Throw an underrated Javon Pickett into the mix and that's 4 extremely promising prospects that we have a real shot at. Groce has shown an ability to recruit well outside Chicago (Hill, Finke, Black, JCL), and needs to be given a chance to bring these kids in.
- I don't think Groce is the finished article as a coach. Just like players, coaches improve with experience, and Groce is still a young coach. Perhaps he was a bit too inflexible with his offensive approach in past seasons, expecting players to quickly adapt to his dribble-drive offense. But I think Groce has shown more of a willingness to adapt this season (he's had no choice), using the post extensively when Thorne was healthy, and now allowing our wing players to create with Nunn back in the lineup. I see signs of improvement from Groce.
Sorry for the long-winded post, but it's hard to keep things brief when you think big-picture about the program. The bottom line for me is that I believe Groce has this program heading in the right direction and needs to be given the support from both the fans and university to continue.
I really believe that what a program like ours needs most is stability. I also see no reason that Groce shouldn't be the coach to provide that stability. We all know the difficult cards this team has been dealt this season, so there's no need to regurgitate that here. But taking a wider view of the state of the program, there are real reasons for optimism moving forward under Groce:
- The current roster has a ton of young talent, and Groce has to get credit for that. I think Jordan, JCL, and Finke (especially) have shown they could be very good college basketball players before their careers are over at Illinois. Sure we've been the bridesmaid in recruiting more than we'd like, but the recruits Groce has landed are showing promise. Groce needs to be given the chance to continue their progression.
- With the Farm project now finally coming together, Groce can begin to pitch to recruits a state-of-the-art facility to recruits. I'm not sure how much fans realize the importance of facilities, but it's a really big deal, and we've been significantly behind the curve for around a decade.
- There's an enormous opportunity in the 2017 recruiting class. What makes this class unique from a UI prospective isn't just the depth of prospects, but the number of prospects from outside the Chicago area. If you include Tilmon (since he's still from Illinois), it's easy to argue that 3 of the state's top 5 players are from outside Chicagoland (Tilmon, Williams, and Goodwin). That's very rare. Throw an underrated Javon Pickett into the mix and that's 4 extremely promising prospects that we have a real shot at. Groce has shown an ability to recruit well outside Chicago (Hill, Finke, Black, JCL), and needs to be given a chance to bring these kids in.
- I don't think Groce is the finished article as a coach. Just like players, coaches improve with experience, and Groce is still a young coach. Perhaps he was a bit too inflexible with his offensive approach in past seasons, expecting players to quickly adapt to his dribble-drive offense. But I think Groce has shown more of a willingness to adapt this season (he's had no choice), using the post extensively when Thorne was healthy, and now allowing our wing players to create with Nunn back in the lineup. I see signs of improvement from Groce.
Sorry for the long-winded post, but it's hard to keep things brief when you think big-picture about the program. The bottom line for me is that I believe Groce has this program heading in the right direction and needs to be given the support from both the fans and university to continue.
- Status