John Groce at Illinois

[bleedsorangenblue]

Why are some of you stating that bringing in a new coach is setting us back? You bring in a new coach because the one you have isn't getting it done.

You don't keep a person because they MIGHT be better down the road. If that person isn't getting the results you should cut ties and get another person in that will.

And I'm sick of excuses. For me an excuse is a one time thing. It's year 4 and people are still coming up with anything they can to say it isn't Groce's fault. We can't wait around forever hoping he turns it around. When he got the job he came up with a plan to bring Illinois back to national prominence. It's shown it hasn't worked and it's time for a change.

Now we just need a capable AD to make the right hire.

Simple ... cost/benefit analysis. Waiting another year to see what Groce can do is small cost vs. starting over with a new guy who's upside and ability to turn the program around quickly is not known. I don't see us being able to hire anyone who could do this faster than Groce can potentially be able to do so. Barring an out-of-the-park home-run hire, a new guy would need to forge new relationships, rebuild a roster in his own mold, create new culture, etc. In a blink of an eye, 4-5 years can be gone without results being that much better. History has shown this to be the case across programs. How can anyone realistically expect it would be any more different with a new guy? Of course it could happen but it is just as likely or more so that it will not.

As to the second bold part, no one is asking people to wait forever. I think another year will be pretty telling. This year would have told us a lot but there are too many uncontrollable setbacks to be able to tell much at this point. Of course the light could go on yet this year and the team could be playing great ball by the end of the season making this all moot. Anything could happen.

 

[dmac279]

Interesting.

I realize there were less teams in the NCAA back then, but didn't realize it took Lou 8 seasons to make that a trend.

And Groce comes in with the same situation as Henson, if not worse it takes time, today's standards are instant gratification don't work that way bless your Kentucky

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

And Groce comes in with the same situation as Henson, if not worse it takes time, today's standards are instant gratification don't work that way bless your Kentucky

Um, no Henson inherited a situation that was light years worse than when Groce was hired. Not even close.

 

[illini55]

Fire Fire Fire ..... I can't begin to explain how short-sighted this mentality is. Groce is trying to build this program up from near ground zero and you want to fire him in the midst of his 4th season? .... A season riddled with injuries, playing freshmen and a walk-on in significant minutes? Top that off and you want to bring in a bunch of people with little to no coaching experience? This is a program that is on the rebound but it is not going to happen over night. Take away all the setbacks and injuries, and you still have a solid core to build on for the future.

This program is not as broken as many here seem to believe. If you all can't see that, I am sorry for you. I expect this team will show some significant progress yet this season and look night and day different next year. Groce should be on the hot seat if he can not make a very significant difference next year. He deserves the chance to make this difference happen and deserves fan support in the process.

As much as some might wish to think so, the options to retaining Groce are not more attractive. The last search showed that the job is not the plumb that many thought it was. Who would want to come here amid the current turmoil in the administration in a school with a penchant for firing its top-level coaches? A lot more damage would be done by firing Groce at this juncture.

This is exactly how I feel. Thank you for articulating it.

I'm tired of the "I like Groce, but" mentality. So, I'll just say it. I like Groce, period. If March 2018 rolls around and we're lacking real, discernible progress, then there's no remaining option and he's got to go. I hope that doesn't happen, because I'm proud to call him our coach.

Go Illini!

 

[illini8507]

This is exactly how I feel. Thank you for articulating it.

I'm tired of the "I like Groce, but" mentality. So, I'll just say it. I like Groce, period. If March 2018 rolls around and we're lacking real, discernible progress, then there's no remaining option and he's got to go. I hope that doesn't happen, because I'm proud to call him our coach.

Go Illini!

I wish more people could see through their knee jerk rage and desire for instant gratification to realize that this is really the most logical way to feel about our current situation

 

[danielb927]

You don't keep a person because they MIGHT be better down the road. If that person isn't getting the results you should cut ties and get another person in that also MIGHT.

Fixed that for you.

 

[DudeAbides]

And Groce comes in with the same situation as Henson, if not worse it takes time, today's standards are instant gratification don't work that way bless your Kentucky

:huh:

Prior 4 years before Henson, Illinois had 2 different coaches and went a combined 41-56.

Prior 4 years before Groce, Illinois had 1 coach and went a combined 82-54.

You can't even make the "cupboard was dry" argument since Groce inherited a 13 recruiting class that already had Jalen James and Malcolm Hill in it. His first roster had 3 seniors who had logged a lot of playing time together, including a former B1G Freshman of the Year winner. Also had a RS Jr and 2 solid sophs in Egwu and Tracy. That team was primed to make the NCAA tournament.

I don't understand why several posters here are saying Groce walked into some massive rebuilding job. We fired Weber because it was clear he had plateau'd us as a program that wins 1 NCAA game every 5 years or so. Now people are saying they'd love to have that kind of success and in order to take it a step further will require some 5-8 year plan. Nonsense.

 

[Calvin]

Doesn't look thin to me at all.

Are you just nit-picking how thin he is, cause I'll agree he's picked up weight from earlier. Do you actually have a different evaluation?

 

[homesickalien]

Fixed that for you.

You're right, but you don't settle for mediocrity. You always try to improve and right now that isn't happening.

 

[alaskaillini]

This tells it all .....

1971 - 72 Harv Schmidt 14 - 10 5 - 9 8th(T)
1972 - 73 Harv Schmidt 14 - 10 8 - 6 3rd(T)
1973 - 74 Harv Schmidt 5 - 18 2 - 12 10th
Harv Schmidt: 89 - 77 43 - 55
Gene Bartow (1974–1975)
1974 - 75 Gene Bartow 8 - 18 4 - 14 9th(T)
Lou Henson (1975–1996)
1975 - 76 Lou Henson 14 - 13 7 - 11 7th(T)
1976 - 77 Lou Henson 16 - 14 8 - 10 6th
1977 - 78 Lou Henson 13 - 14 7 - 11 7th
1978 - 79 Lou Henson 19 - 11 7 - 11 7th
1979 - 80 Lou Henson 22 - 13 8 - 10 6th(T) NIT 3rd Place
1980 - 81 Lou Henson 21 - 8 12 - 6 3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1981 - 82 Lou Henson 18 - 11 10 - 8 6th NIT 2nd Round
1982 - 83 Lou Henson 21 - 11 11 - 7 2nd(T) NCAA 1st Round
1983 - 84 Lou Henson 26 - 5 15 - 3 1st(T) NCAA Elite Eight
1984 - 85 Lou Henson 26 - 9 12 - 6 2nd NCAA Sweet 16
1985 - 86 Lou Henson 22 - 10 11 - 7 4th(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1986 - 87 Lou Henson 23 - 8 13 - 5 4th NCAA 1st Round
1987 - 88 Lou Henson 23 - 10 12 - 6 3rd(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1988 - 89 Lou Henson 31 - 5 14 - 4 2nd NCAA Final Four
1989 - 90 Lou Henson 21 - 8 11 - 7 4th(T) NCAA 1st Round
1990 - 91 Lou Henson 21 - 10 11 - 7 3rd(T)
1991 - 92 Lou Henson 13 - 15 7 - 11 8th
1992 - 93 Lou Henson 19 - 13 11 - 7 3rd(T) NCAA 2nd Round
1993 - 94 Lou Henson 17 - 11 10 - 8 4th(T) NCAA 1st Round
1994 - 95 Lou Henson 19 - 12 10 - 8 5th(T) NCAA 1st Round
1995 - 96 Lou Henson 18 - 13 7 - 11 9th NIT 1st Round

2003 - 04 Bruce Weber 26 - 7 13 - 3 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2004 - 05 Bruce Weber 37 - 2 15 - 1 1st NCAA Runner-Up
2005 - 06 Bruce Weber 26 - 7 11 - 5 2nd(T) NCAA Round of 32
2006 - 07 Bruce Weber 23 - 12 9 - 7 4th(T) NCAA Round of 64
2007 - 08 Bruce Weber 16 - 19 5 - 13 9th(T)
2008 - 09 Bruce Weber 24 - 10 11 - 7 2nd(T) NCAA Round of 64
2009 - 10 Bruce Weber 21 - 15 10 - 8 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2010 - 11 Bruce Weber 20 - 14 9 - 9 4th NCAA Round of 32
2011 - 12 Bruce Weber 17 - 15 6 - 12 9th

Henson has the court named after him, but he only went to the NCAA once in his first 7 years. Didn't do better than last year's team until year 5. People have short memories, but I remember the "Thru with Lou" bumper stickers. Illinois' basketball tradition is spotty at best. Haven't looked it up, but you probably have to go back to the Whiz Kids before Lou to see any real success.

 

[ChazzReinhold]

Are you just nit-picking how thin he is, cause I'll agree he's picked up weight from earlier. Do you actually have a different evaluation?

As I stated I'm just disagreeing with you that he is "very thin." In fact, I think quite the opposite, as he shows good ability to finish through contact.

 

[geneseo]

Henson has the court named after him, but he only went to the NCAA once in his first 7 years. Didn't do better than last year's team until year 5. People have short memories, but I remember the "Thru with Lou" bumper stickers. Illinois' basketball tradition is spotty at best. Haven't looked it up, but you probably have to go back to the Whiz Kids before Lou to see any real success.

Combes had three final four appearances, four Big Ten championships and even beat UCLA in their heyday under Wooden and Kentucky under Rupp at Kentucky in the same year no less. And Schmidt had a couple of good years including stopping Houston's big winning streak.

 

[HeartofaChampion]

Henson has the court named after him, but he only went to the NCAA once in his first 7 years. Didn't do better than last year's team until year 5. People have short memories, but I remember the "Thru with Lou" bumper stickers. Illinois' basketball tradition is spotty at best. Haven't looked it up, but you probably have to go back to the Whiz Kids before Lou to see any real success.

:huh:

Prior 4 years before Henson, Illinois had 2 different coaches and went a combined 41-56.

Prior 4 years before Groce, Illinois had 1 coach and went a combined 82-54.

You can't even make the "cupboard was dry" argument since Groce inherited a 13 recruiting class that already had Jalen James and Malcolm Hill in it. His first roster had 3 seniors who had logged a lot of playing time together, including a former B1G Freshman of the Year winner. Also had a RS Jr and 2 solid sophs in Egwu and Tracy. That team was primed to make the NCAA tournament.

I don't understand why several posters here are saying Groce walked into some massive rebuilding job. We fired Weber because it was clear he had plateau'd us as a program that wins 1 NCAA game every 5 years or so. Now people are saying they'd love to have that kind of success and in order to take it a step further will require some 5-8 year plan. Nonsense.

Um, no Henson inherited a situation that was light years worse than when Groce was hired. Not even close.

Yep.

 

[Calvin]

As I stated I'm just disagreeing with you that he is "very thin." In fact, I think quite the opposite, as he shows good ability to finish through contact.

Ok, well that doesn't tell me much about what kind of contribution you think he'll make as a freshman.

 

[geneseo]

Henson has the court named after him, but he only went to the NCAA once in his first 7 years. Didn't do better than last year's team until year 5. People have short memories, but I remember the "Thru with Lou" bumper stickers. Illinois' basketball tradition is spotty at best. Haven't looked it up, but you probably have to go back to the Whiz Kids before Lou to see any real success.

Program was in shambles. Henson was the third coach in three years. Henson had an offer from Oklahoma iirc. Only reason he came here instead of Oklahoma is his wife, Mary, is from Illinois. Thank you, Mary.

 

[Deleted member 11241]

What irritates me about some fans is that the past couple years after we have been spurned by the top recruits a lot of people were screaming that Groce needed to quit going after the top talent and find 3-4* guys and coach them up. Well, he has been doing that all along and probably the same posters are now screaming that he isn't getting the top recruits needed. Make up your mind. Also, to the ones that claim Groce is not any good at player development, please explain how Nunn and Hill numbers have increased every year. Finke, Rice?? Your saying they didn't develop. Heck even Morgan has gotten better. I really feel that without the injuries we would have at most 3 losses this year and this thread would probably not have started. Groce deserves to at least graduate his first recruiting class before we put him on the hot seat. This year is far from over and anything can happen, especially come BTT time. Would love to see the team rally and make a late season run and hopefully squash this discussion

 

[dmac279]

:huh:

Prior 4 years before Henson, Illinois had 2 different coaches and went a combined 41-56.

Prior 4 years before Groce, Illinois had 1 coach and went a combined 82-54.

You can't even make the "cupboard was dry" argument since Groce inherited a 13 recruiting class that already had Jalen James and Malcolm Hill in it. His first roster had 3 seniors who had logged a lot of playing time together, including a former B1G Freshman of the Year winner. Also had a RS Jr and 2 solid sophs in Egwu and Tracy. That team was primed to make the NCAA tournament.

I don't understand why several posters here are saying Groce walked into some massive rebuilding job. We fired Weber because it was clear he had plateau'd us as a program that wins 1 NCAA game every 5 years or so. Now people are saying they'd love to have that kind of success and in order to take it a step further will require some 5-8 year plan. Nonsense.

That's my point, a different time frame compared to Lou, people want a winner and they want it now. It don't work that way, unless your a blue blood type program

 

[Calvin]

This is exactly how I feel. Thank you for articulating it.

I'm tired of the "I like Groce, but" mentality.
Go Illini!

A reasonable opinion. You're all-in on Groce until proven otherwise, and not looking closely at what he does with an injury-depleted roster. I think the opposite is just as reasonable given the on-court performance of the last 2 1/2 seasons. I'm also evaluating this season, even if the bar is lowered for the injuries. We all agree 10 or 11 wins would be great progress, but are 9 wins? 8? 7? Surely there's a win total that would concern you. If the only teams we can beat are Rutgers and PSU, and maybe Minney or NW, doesn't that say we're not just bad, we're terrible?

Also, as others have mentioned, if Groce can recruit despite the losses on the court, that is a huge swing in his favor that he will soon contend for a BIG championship. However, the last recruiting cycle did not inspire a lot of confidence, and that puts more pressure on 2017 to be successful in the long term.

I get the optimists. I also get the pessimists. What I'm not understanding is how the optimists don't see the reason the pessimists are concerned.

 

[dmac279]

Um, no Henson inherited a situation that was light years worse than when Groce was hired. Not even close.

We're talking different eras, Levi Cobb got the ball rolling for Henson and it got better and better. The new era is we should be winning and no losing involved, groce did some good players he also dumped some hat didn't fit he had to rebuild takes time

 

[UofIChE06]

This is exactly how I feel. Thank you for articulating it.

I'm tired of the "I like Groce, but" mentality. So, I'll just say it. I like Groce, period. If March 2018 rolls around and we're lacking real, discernible progress, then there's no remaining option and he's got to go. I hope that doesn't happen, because I'm proud to call him our coach.

Go Illini!

Don't disagree but I think the timeline is March 2017. By then you will know a lot. Next season should be reasonably successful and should be successful from a recruiting standpoint. If neither of those come to fruition I think you have to part ways and start over.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

What I'm not understanding is how the optimists don't see the reason the pessimists are concerned.

I don't blame anyone for being concerned, but IMO it's very likely Groce is here another year, so we're going to get more info on his capabilities and how he does with the 2017 class. That's going to go a long way towards determining his fate.

We're talking different eras, Levi Cobb got the ball rolling for Henson and it got better and better. The new era is we should be winning and no losing involved, groce did some good players he also dumped some hat didn't fit he had to rebuild takes time

I read this a couple of times and not sure what you're saying. I was responding to your comment:

And Groce comes in with the same situation as Henson, if not worse

No, the situation Groce came into was not worse than when Henson was hired. An absurd comparison.

 

[ChazzReinhold]

Ok, well that doesn't tell me much about what kind of contribution you think he'll make as a freshman.

Maybe I agree with the rest of what you wrote and only took issue with what I pointed out. Is that OK?

 

[89illinigrad]

A reasonable opinion. You're all-in on Groce until proven otherwise, and not looking closely at what he does with an injury-depleted roster. I think the opposite is just as reasonable given the on-court performance of the last 2 1/2 seasons. I'm also evaluating this season, even if the bar is lowered for the injuries. We all agree 10 or 11 wins would be great progress, but are 9 wins? 8? 7? Surely there's a win total that would concern you. If the only teams we can beat are Rutgers and PSU, and maybe Minney or NW, doesn't that say we're not just bad, we're terrible?

Also, as others have mentioned, if Groce can recruit despite the losses on the court, that is a huge swing in his favor that he will soon contend for a BIG championship. However, the last recruiting cycle did not inspire a lot of confidence, and that puts more pressure on 2017 to be successful in the long term.

I get the optimists. I also get the pessimists. What I'm not understanding is how the optimists don't see the reason the pessimists are concerned.

What I don't get is why the pessimists don't think we would be a heck of lot better without all the injuries. They downplay the importance of losing Thorne and Black, or not having our leading scorer Nunn at the beginning of the year, or not having JCL on the European trip, etc..and that's without even considering Abrams.

 

[89illinigrad]

Don't disagree but I think the timeline is March 2017. By then you will know a lot. Next season should be reasonably successful and should be successful from a recruiting standpoint. If neither of those come to fruition I think you have to part ways and start over.

I think that's what most people can agree on except for the extremists on either side.

 

[illini8507]

I think that's what most people can agree on except for the extremists on either side.

Problem is, they're the loudest