Illini Basketball 2016-2017

[Combo]

Starting 4/5: Finke, Thorne (Spacing, just seems like a perfect fit imo)

4/5 off bench: Black/Mav (A classic B1G bench mob with 2 brutes that aren't afraid to pick up a foul....or 4)


Starting 5: Abrams-JCL-Malcolm-Finke-Thorne

I'm telling you this team could do some things this year. We have some grown men on this squad....literally. That's a quality that I don't think people are talking enough about.

If Tracy is healthy and close to where he was 3 years ago, I agree with you. IMO that's a big "if."

 

[Cubby Blue]

If Tracy is healthy and close to where he was 3 years ago, I agree with you. IMO that's a big "if."

I think Tracy is healthy and maybe even better than he was 3 years ago. The "if" is whether or not he stays that way.

 

[OldGreg]

I have been a fan for a long time back to the Levi Cobb days for basketball Chubby Phillips for football. its kind of in my blood as my grandfather ran one of the cranes that poured the Hall I do not think I am wrong I think its more you all thought I ment he should play the 3 far from it just I could see him getting mins at the 3 like Hill getting mins at the point. with the team we have now a lot would have to happen for there to be a reason to play him there but I still think he could if needed

Sure he could in a spot but that would mean almost our entire backcourt got hurt. I'd rather just play Alex Austin or that walk on from Creighton than put Leron out there to get abused defensively and also be useless on the perimeter. When we had to play Leron out of position at the 5 against Iowa St, we got absolutely crushed. Would likely be the same in your scenario. At least AA showed he could play D against good competition.

 

[BillMo]

I think Tracy is healthy and maybe even better than he was 3 years ago. The "if" is whether or not he stays that way.

I agree just needs to stay healthy

 

[Newman]

first game starting 5 will be TA,MH,DJW,MF and Thorne AJ could very well start in DJ's spot just cause we will have no Black and Dj fits the 4 spot better

I don't see Hill playing the 2 in the first game or so, if JCL is still recovering, and it's not because he can't but because we don't need him to. Hill is going to have a long season and these are games that we can afford to have even a walk-on play at the 2 if necessary. Let's hope that's the case and we don't have another Chicago State scare. With Groce's comments recently, I still believe that JCL will be back by the first game, even if it's in a limited role off the bench.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Yes, but my point was a little different. Top recruits give you more flexibility due to their talent in terms of ability. So it was not that Roger was a top recruit who was able to make that transition due to superior talent. Roger was highly regarded although lower ranked than Black.

But it was a different kind of transition. Roger was a SF at Joliet who occasionally played PF, whereas Black has been really a PF both in HS and college. Style-wise, it is a totally different transition, one that Black may not be able to make. I do agree with the poster's introduction, I did watch Powell in practice on a few occasions his first years and he was indeed raw. But his skill-set was different than Black's.

I guess I'm not seeing your point. Powell joined a team with experience and depth at the 4/5, so didn't have to make any transition that first year. In fact, I recall there was some talk he really wanted to play the 2. The following season we still had Cook/Augie/Smith as bigs, but with Dee/Deron/Luther around, playing the 4 made more sense.

Black isn't going to be making any transition, because aside from a few delusional fans, no one is even thinking about him playing anything but the 4.

My original point was just to add another type of press that had not been mentioned and give some examples of teams that had successful runs using the press. I intended to add the fact that presses such as this one can be used to force the offensive team to run time off the clock before getting into their offense.

Sure, but again, different era. No shot clock, no 3 point line. Not really relevant to the discussion.

The BTN Plus story is even more exciting this year. The fourth game is more than thirty days after the first game. That means we have to pay for two months of the service that we love if we want to watch all four. And that means we have to remember to cancel. Previously, we could subscribe and cancel all at once and still see all the BTN Plus games.

Well, you could skip the exhibition games I guess. Then you'd have the 2 games that count within a 30 day window.

 

[Obelix]

I guess I'm not seeing your point. Powell joined a team with experience and depth at the 4/5, so didn't have to make any transition that first year. In fact, I recall there was some talk he really wanted to play the 2. The following season we still had Cook/Augie/Smith as bigs, but with Dee/Deron/Luther around, playing the 4 made more sense.

Black isn't going to be making any transition, because aside from a few delusional fans, no one is even thinking about him playing anything but the 4.

Not sure what you are arguing with regards to my post. I saw Powell in HS at Joliet a few times. He was really a SF who occasionally played PF. I also saw him in a few practices early in his career, with Self as the coach. He was indeed raw. He wanted to play 3, actually was not happy he was not getting more utilized at the position, I know for a fact that his family (his father) was not very happy either.

As an upperclassman with Weber, he convinced himself to make the transition to PF. I assume he realized he was not going to get much PT otherwise, give the team roster, style, composition. He bulked up, although Roger was always physically fit, even when he arrived at UI as a freshman.

Posters on this thread have implied that Black can make as similar transition to SF, if Roger could do it, so could Black. Others have implied in response that maybe Roger was more talented. I do not agree with either, I just think that Roger's transition was a lot different transitioning from SF/PF in HS to a PF role in college, whereas Black is more of a traditional PF style of player who would need to transition to SF, which I do not think it will happen either. Not because of talent, but skills-set, totally different skills-set required than Roger's. And a much more difficult transition.

 

[Tevo]

More than that, I think Finke is a better complement to Thorne. That's why I think he'll start. Black is a better complement with Mav. Having said that, I think Finke and Black split the minutes at the 4, regardless of who starts.

It may come down to which player is better able to provide energy off the bench. Some guys start the game on the bench and are able to watch for a bit, get a sense of the game's pace, the officials' moods, etc. and come in after a few minutes and provide what is needed. Other guys start on the bench and their mood drops and they lose confidence. I don't know how Finke and Black will each respond to starting vs. being on the bench, but their ability to come in against the opponent's backups and perform at a high level will be a significant factor in the rotation and substitution patterns.

 

[Tevo]

What does this hiring as Director of Basketball Operations mean for the Illini?

I think it'll help in recruiting.

 

[Combo]

Not sure what you are arguing with regards to my post. I saw Powell in HS at Joliet a few times. He was really a SF who occasionally played PF. I also saw him in a few practices early in his career, with Self as the coach. He was indeed raw. He wanted to play 3, actually was not happy he was not getting more utilized at the position, I know for a fact that his family (his father) was not very happy either.

As an upperclassman with Weber, he convinced himself to make the transition to PF. I assume he realized he was not going to get much PT otherwise, give the team roster, style, composition. He bulked up, although Roger was always physically fit, even when he arrived at UI as a freshman.

Posters on this thread have implied that Black can make as similar transition to SF, if Roger could do it, so could Black. Others have implied in response that maybe Roger was more talented. I do not agree with either, I just think that Roger's transition was a lot different transitioning from SF/PF in HS to a PF role in college, whereas Black is more of a traditional PF style of player who would need to transition to SF, which I do not think it will happen either. Not because of talent, but skills-set, totally different skills-set required than Roger's. And a much more difficult transition.

In today's game, it's an awful lot easier for a "natural" SF to play PF than vice versa.

I have to ask the size-complex posters -- what value does Black provide playing on the perimeter? His value is his strength and toughness on defense and on the boards and maybe his shot out to 12-15 feet. That largely goes to waste if he's on the perimeter.

 

[Calvin]

I would take that bet.

Yeah, that's my recollection as well, although I don't bet on my memory. I seem to recall there were a couple times he was in there with a big line-up (and we had some great forwards then) where he was our 3. Looked up his stats, and the site had him with 73 attempts for 3 in his soph year, with almost 40% made.

Incredible effort player, and a bit of a mad-man on the court. Loved having him as an Illini. I think that kind of player lifts the whole team.

 

[Calvin]

Posters on this thread have implied that Black can make as similar transition to SF, if Roger could do it, so could Black.

Why would anyone want him to? He's got a special talent for rebounding --something we happen to need.

One person posted they thought Black would have to earn back his starting spot, and while I think that might be true for a lot of players, Black has done an exemplary job of owning his mistake and showing leadership in how he's handling it. I don't expect Groce to have any hesitation about letting him back on the court, personally.

 

[Dan]

Get to Know: Illini Director of Basketball Operations James Haring

http://www.scout.com/college/illinois/story/1708709-groce-hires-james-haring-dobo-position

 

[icengineer]

Get to Know: Illini Director of Basketball Operations James Haring

http://www.scout.com/college/illinois/story/1708709-groce-hires-james-haring-dobo-position

I certainly expect our managers to continue to maintain the success we've had in manager games against other programs the night before the actual game.

So our managers have games against the opposing team's managers prior to games? Who knew? Sounds cool, and fun!:thumb:

 

[zoggle101]

College basketball is in the air.

Roger Powell needs to be a part of this program asap. Leron and the Rev are totally different players, but both are great at the four spot. I can't see Leron playing the 3 at this point, plus with Kipper and DJW, we are deep there with size and skill already.

We had to press a lot last year it seemed like. It didn't look horrible either. I doubt we see any thing more than a soft press from us unless we are down which I hope isn't the case. We can do it effectively, and our personnel is deeper this year.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Not sure what you are arguing with regards to my post. I saw Powell in HS at Joliet a few times. He was really a SF who occasionally played PF. I also saw him in a few practices early in his career, with Self as the coach. He was indeed raw. He wanted to play 3, actually was not happy he was not getting more utilized at the position, I know for a fact that his family (his father) was not very happy either.

As an upperclassman with Weber, he convinced himself to make the transition to PF. I assume he realized he was not going to get much PT otherwise, give the team roster, style, composition. He bulked up, although Roger was always physically fit, even when he arrived at UI as a freshman.

Posters on this thread have implied that Black can make as similar transition to SF, if Roger could do it, so could Black. Others have implied in response that maybe Roger was more talented. I do not agree with either, I just think that Roger's transition was a lot different transitioning from SF/PF in HS to a PF role in college, whereas Black is more of a traditional PF style of player who would need to transition to SF, which I do not think it will happen either. Not because of talent, but skills-set, totally different skills-set required than Roger's. And a much more difficult transition.

I think we agree on all of this. I guess I was confused why you brought rankings into the picture. To me (and from what you wrote above, you also agree) it's more about the skill set of the player than where they are ranked. As we've discussed here many times, traditional positions are getting less important. And especially in high school, positions can be drastically different for some kids. Often a player who ends up at guard/wing in college might play on the interior in high school because he's one of the taller kids on the team.

 

[Obelix]

I think we agree on all of this. I guess I was confused why you brought rankings into the picture. To me (and from what you wrote above, you also agree) it's more about the skill set of the player than where they are ranked. As we've discussed here many times, traditional positions are getting less important. And especially in high school, positions can be drastically different for some kids. Often a player who ends up at guard/wing in college might play on the interior in high school because he's one of the taller kids on the team.

I think we agree on the overall point of the specific players involved (Black/Powell) although I am less of a strong supporter of the bolded (only under conditions). Sure in HS, a tall kid on a specific team often plays up in position, but I think that has always been true, more so in the past, so that IMO is less on how basketball has evolved.

Flexibility can work, but you need a higher level of talent. Sure, Hamilton played C, and so did Deon, all their career, but they were extremely talented, top level talent players (no just as measured by rankings). In the case of Hamilton, the surrounding talent on that team was extremely high as well. Even with Powell, it was not just the individual effort/ability. Roger was a lot more effective in that transition (to PF) playing alongside extremely talented group of guards, arguably the strongest PG/SG combo.

IMO the last few years have been an example in the opposite direction. The obvious gaps at traditional PG/C positions have been the culprit of our problems, and multiple efforts to use "flexibility" failed. Yet, if we had top talent (not just measured by rankings) the outcome might have been different. I honestly do not believe that we currently have that, independent of rankings. And even in the 2017 class, I am more excited about fixing the traditional positional gaps than the ability to use players at multiple positions.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

So your point was we need more talent? Yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that, though still not sure what it has to do with the original discussion.

As to the "traditional positions are getting less important", I think maybe I wasn't clear, maybe I should have said "traditional position labels are getting less important", which goes back to having the right skills are what matters, not if you're a "3" or a "4".

 

[Obelix]

In today's game, it's an awful lot easier for a "natural" SF to play PF than vice versa.

I have to ask the size-complex posters -- what value does Black provide playing on the perimeter? His value is his strength and toughness on defense and on the boards and maybe his shot out to 12-15 feet. That largely goes to waste if he's on the perimeter.

I agree with the first statement, that transition is easier than vice versa. Especially if the SF had also occasionally played PF in HS.

On the motivation of posters mentioning Black at SF, I think it is more of an aspiration to play Black and Finke together in the same lineup.

I know most envision a very deep team, but when all said and done (not against cupcakes) it will be a 9-deep main rotation max.

C: Thorne/Mav
PF: Finke/Black
SG/SF: JCL/Hill + 1 more
PG: 2 main player rotation

Obviously the biggest concern is the 2 PGs (out of 3 available really), with all 3 available having major concerns. So there is always the scenario of playing Hill part time there, but I am not a fan of that scenario.

 

[TCTORNADO]

So your point was we need more talent? Yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that, though still not sure what it has to do with the original discussion.

As to the "traditional positions are getting less important", I think maybe I wasn't clear, maybe I should have said "traditional position labels are getting less important", which goes back to having the right skills are what matters, not if you're a "3" or a "4".

You get it!!

 

[Obelix]

So your point was we need more talent? Yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that, though still not sure what it has to do with the original discussion.

More talent is always desirable, even at traditional positions. But the "flexibility" to transition players to multiple positions, requires a higher talent level than we currently have. Quite a bit higher IMO. Even in 2017 as I said, I am more excited that we finally addressed some positional gaps, than we have really improved talent level to have the flexibility to have players play multiple positions.

 

[TCTORNADO]

Groce uses the word versatility a lot. Best examples are probably Nichols and Hill.
Kigab as a recruit fits that word.

 

[Obelix]

Groce uses the word versatility a lot. Best examples are probably Nichols and Hill.
Kigab as a recruit fits that word.

He uses that word alright, but I am not sure the results of that word have been that good.

I have not seen Nichols play so can't comment on this talents/skills. But the experiment of Hill at 4 did not produce great results.

 

[Bleed O and B]

I agree with the first statement, that transition is easier than vice versa. Especially if the SF had also occasionally played PF in HS.

On the motivation of posters mentioning Black at SF, I think it is more of an aspiration to play Black and Finke together in the same lineup.

I know most envision a very deep team, but when all said and done (not against cupcakes) it will be a 9-deep main rotation max.

C: Thorne/Mav
PF: Finke/Black
SG/SF: JCL/Hill + 1 more
PG: 2 main player rotation

Obviously the biggest concern is the 2 PGs (out of 3 available really), with all 3 available having major concerns. So there is always the scenario of playing Hill part time there, but I am not a fan of that scenario.

When you say 9 man "rotation" I think of 9 guys each playing 20mins. and making major contributions.

I see a 7 man rotation driving all the stats, with a few subs
I see a 4 man rotation at the bigs Thorne/Mav and Finke/Black with each person playing 20mins.
I see 3 guys TA/JCL/Hill each playing 35 mins with a few mins for subs TJL/KN/DJW who are not really going to put up much in the way of stats, but just giving guys a 2 min rest at a time.

 

[Obelix]

When you say 9 man "rotation" I think of 9 guys each playing 20mins. and making major contributions.

I see a 7 man rotation driving all the stats, with a few subs
I see a 4 man rotation at the bigs Thorne/Mav and Finke/Black with each person playing 20mins.
I see 3 guys TA/JCL/Hill each playing 35 mins with a few mins for subs TJL/KN/DJW who are not really going to put up much in the way of stats, but just giving guys a 2 min rest at a time.

9 players each averaging 20 mins will not happen. Just he frontcourt that you have (PF/C), in order for that to happen, they all need to play exactly 20 mins, since there are only 80 mins available per game. Unless they play at other positions as well, but none of those players is a good candidate.

I am talking about the Max main rotation, excluding cupcakes or runaway wins/losses where players get mins when it does not matter anymore. Main rotation means 10+ mins. I think it will be 9 max, although it can definitely be less in those games.

On the individual players, 35 mins for Abrams after 2 years of inactivity and 2 major surgeries is too much to expect IMO.