I think taken at face value your criticism of Malcolm and the takeover/hero mode is completely warranted. However, consider our major offensive strategy which is to isolate and perhaps set a pick for one guy, when a team is behind there is not much team strategy about how to get back into a game, and it seems fair to think that your best hope is to feed your player who is hottest, and or your player who is most abel to crat his own shot, which is Malcolm. In other words, dont hate the playa.... hate the game
Purdue 91, Illinois 68 POSTGAME
I think taken at face value your criticism of Malcolm and the takeover/hero mode is completely warranted. However, consider our major offensive strategy which is to isolate and perhaps set a pick for one guy, when a team is behind there is not much team strategy about how to get back into a game, and it seems fair to think that your best hope is to feed your player who is hottest, and or your player who is most abel to crat his own shot, which is Malcolm. In other words, dont hate the playa.... hate the game
Either we have a team full of guards and wings that don't know how to move without the ball or Groce doesn't know how to coach wings and guards how to move without the ball.
Groce's "system" is a high-post screen for the point guard while two guys stand on the wing and one guy roams around the baseline somewhere. That's it. He doesn't teach the guys how to play basketball properly.
He doesn't teach defense properly either. (Or, we have a roster full of guys who don't know how to play defense)
Groce isn't doing himself any favors though. Tracy needs to sit. He's a detriment to the team and decreases our chances of winning a game. I'd rather have Alex Austin play the 2, at least he can play some D.
Tate, Thorne and Tracy are toast. They don't need to play for more than a combined 15 minutes/game at this point.
We have learned that we cannot win with the veterans. Time to play the young guys and see if they can turn this thing around.
NOW.
Groce's "system" is a high-post screen for the point guard while two guys stand on the wing and one guy roams around the baseline somewhere. That's it. He doesn't teach the guys how to play basketball properly.
He doesn't teach defense properly either. (Or, we have a roster full of guys who don't know how to play defense)
Groce isn't doing himself any favors though. Tracy needs to sit. He's a detriment to the team and decreases our chances of winning a game. I'd rather have Alex Austin play the 2, at least he can play some D.
Tate, Thorne and Tracy are toast. They don't need to play for more than a combined 15 minutes/game at this point.
We have learned that we cannot win with the veterans. Time to play the young guys and see if they can turn this thing around.
NOW.
he took 12 shots.......hardly a crazy amount that would suggest trying to do it al lhimself......then you have the 5 assists too. Sorry but He is not in hero ball mode IMO.
Furthermore, the lack of offensive scheme often leads to iso plays where he has to just go for it.
Doesn't even look like the same person. The little right handed bunny is still there but none of the agility and dunking ability. The injury must have been worse than we thought. No wonder the blue bloods were after him.
Sadly doesn't look like the same player at all. I can't remember the last time I saw him even attempt a pivot or any kind of rotational up-and-under move down low.
Dan fan 86
- N. Illinois
I saw 3/4 of game on DVR. I'm not surprised at outcome. Purdue is a very good team with 2 great bigs and a bunch of very good 3 point shooters. I think they made at least their first 4 3's. Any road win is good in the Big 10, but unrealistic against this team.
-TA is either hurt or permanently limited after injuries against better competition. not surprised.
-MT never got a chance to play Big 10 games last year. We only saw him in non-conf and many expected too much. Injuries have probably slowed him too.
-JT is what he is and should only play in emergency
-MH not sure what happened to him in this game, probably was keyed on. I think he is frustrated, but needs to step up every game.
-MM who would have thought 3 years ago that he would have developed to this point
TA should play backup minutes at 1, MT maybe backup at 5. Let the rest play and see how we do. Can still make tournament with more performances like the Michigan game.
GO Illini
-TA is either hurt or permanently limited after injuries against better competition. not surprised.
-MT never got a chance to play Big 10 games last year. We only saw him in non-conf and many expected too much. Injuries have probably slowed him too.
-JT is what he is and should only play in emergency
-MH not sure what happened to him in this game, probably was keyed on. I think he is frustrated, but needs to step up every game.
-MM who would have thought 3 years ago that he would have developed to this point
TA should play backup minutes at 1, MT maybe backup at 5. Let the rest play and see how we do. Can still make tournament with more performances like the Michigan game.
GO Illini
This. He is gutting it out but he has nowhere near the movement he had before the injury. He is not the same player as he was at the beginning of last year. It is sad to see him struggle like this.
^
Agreed on Thorne. He is less mobile than before. He also battles diabetes so it's a constant struggle for him to maintain weight and such(Jay Cutler is getting killed for this right now). Thorne is just a body at this point who is good for some fouls and taking up space. His minutes should and have been lowered. I recollect how good he did against Indiana in that B10 game last season before he went down for good. He has not really looked like that at all this season.
Agreed on Thorne. He is less mobile than before. He also battles diabetes so it's a constant struggle for him to maintain weight and such(Jay Cutler is getting killed for this right now). Thorne is just a body at this point who is good for some fouls and taking up space. His minutes should and have been lowered. I recollect how good he did against Indiana in that B10 game last season before he went down for good. He has not really looked like that at all this season.
Agree on Thorne. There's a reason Kansas and Kentucky were after him. Before the injury, he was an NBA-worthy combination of size and athleticism. We got a glimpse of his potential last year. This year, he's just a big body who can score a little in the post. Still an asset depending on matchups, but he would have been our third best player on two good legs. Damn shame that both he and Tracy have so little in the tank physically.
That's a bit much. Before the injury he was a 22 year old 5th year senior who had never averaged more than 10 and 7, and that was in a mid-major league.
Kansas wanted him to be a big, tough complementary piece off the bench, not to be a star.
But he's definitely a step slower this year. The injury doesn't help, but one wonders whether the offseason program isn't a culprit as well. He's clearly larger than last year, and carrying more weight.
He looks confident and explosive, but the thing I notice is how much more movement there is in that video. Might be because it's a highlight video and there are a number of transition dunks, but it sure looked like a better offense entirely.
Maybe I'm so used to watching 4 guys stand around the guy with the ball, I'm just not accustomed to seeing an offense with some flow.
Being better than a team doesn't guarantee beating that team. We beat OSU but I'll bet they're better than us and their record by season's end will show it. We'll find out about Michigan next game (we played our game of the season so far at home against them, but now, on the road, wouldn't surprise me to see everything reversed, in terms of our defense and their shooting).
I hope I'm wrong but am seeing a severe death spiral in process. I read the dire 4-14 predictions and really don't understand how anyone can expect another win, other than perhaps another random game like UM at home (but it will have to be against a team that plays D that one night as bad as UM did, and can't buy a bucket either). Based on what I'm seeing, with our then-likely record and then-likely attitude of the team and fanbase, I don't even expect to beat Rutgers away the final game of the regular season. Rutgers would likely be fired up big time to grab a B1G win, and their coach will have a season long scout on how to beat us even with the pieces he's playing with.
If you watch him when he runs up and down the court, it appears he is really laboring and his stride looks very shortened or measured as if he has to think about it too much to keep from re-injuring himself. Something is definitely not right yet and is nothing like the YouTube demo we initially saw of some really great abilities that are no longer there for now.
This team has no fight. Illinois games lately.
First 5 minutes before TV timeout: 2 points
Next 5 mintues: 2 points, 6 substitutions
First Groce forced timeout: Down 10
Second Groce forced timeout: Down 17
Last play before half if we got the ball: Timeout and the play never is executed
Second half
First 5 minutes: 5 points
Next 5 minutes: no points (opponent) 10-0 run
Another forced timeout!
Next 10 minutes (we play hard down 20) plus me either tuning out the game or turning the channel. This team has me so frustrated, I can't watch college ball the next day.
First 5 minutes before TV timeout: 2 points
Next 5 mintues: 2 points, 6 substitutions
First Groce forced timeout: Down 10
Second Groce forced timeout: Down 17
Last play before half if we got the ball: Timeout and the play never is executed
Second half
First 5 minutes: 5 points
Next 5 minutes: no points (opponent) 10-0 run
Another forced timeout!
Next 10 minutes (we play hard down 20) plus me either tuning out the game or turning the channel. This team has me so frustrated, I can't watch college ball the next day.
peace davids
- Colorado
I hate it for our guys, but I would be ok with this at this point. I want the decision to be an easy one.
Recognize
1. Our losses have been to probably 3 of the best 4 teams in the league. So with the exception of the wiscy game, we probably be won't as far outclassed in talent as we were in those games. Against middling teams we have been competitive and we will win a several more.
2. Despite the optimism on this board, most unbiased pre-season polls had us around 10th in the league...that translates to something like 6 or 7 B1G wins. We are probably on track for that. I agree that over the long-term 10th in B1G is not any type of objective, but we make things much worse for ourselves by setting unrealistic expectations for a season.
3. Whatever the record, a fan should be proud of their teams teamwork, effort, growth, etc. Call it an "eye test" . Unfortunately, my Illini have failed the eye test the past few years, and it continues this year. That to me is "the death spiral" that makes me crazy, and I suspect only a change at the top can help here.
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I think most of the Iso plays for Malcolm come from the bench. I'm sure they're looking for, at the least, free throws. Unfortunately, the opponents caught up on this a long time ago. With the extra attention he receives, someone should be open. The ball doesn't seem to find the open player very often.
I agree with you on this. I honestly don't think our players this year are selfish. I just feel we don't know how to play at all (poorly coached). I like Groce, but there is no reason we are as bad as we are. Obviously, we don't have a lot of defenders, but we do have some. Our best year with Groce was with Brandon Paul, D.J., Griffey/Bertand, etc.. Why was that our best year? Because D.J., Brandon, Nnanna, and Abrams could all defend while being coached well from the past. The biggest thing offensively is that we had Paul or Abrams that could consistently create and we had shooters. Groce was the perfect person to take a previous team that were coached well, but did not play well together. Groce had the uplifting persona to get them going.
Since then however, we have no identity . Our lack of playmakers, 2 way players, and identity have killed us. Ever since Egwu masked our defense, we have no defense.
Let's really ask is Malcolm, Maverick, Finke, TJL, Tracy, JCL, etc.. known as selfish people or players. The only one I really see jacking up shots is Leron or on occasion JCL. However, JCL is a shooter, and I don't think Leron is naturally selfish. In the past, I felt Rice, Starks, Nunn, Cosby etc... could be selfish.
Really, the downfall is that Groce's system offensively relies on drive and kick players. When you don't have multiple drivers with multiple shooters, our offense lacks. For example, with his first year (multiple shooters in Griffey, Paul, and Richardson) while being excellent defensively. This year, Hill is the only multi-talented player, Abrams is struggling, JCL is really a shooter, and our only 3 point shooter is Finke at the big guys. However, defensively, who is good in our first unit. Hill can be solid, Abrams can be but past his college prime, JCL is okay, and then Leron works hard, but is not really a defender and Morgan is definitely not. Kipper as a Freshman is our best defender, but is not ready yet, TJL is not really, Tate can be solid, but attrociously offensively, and Thorne is too slow now. DJ and Aaron I feel are not in there enough to really know.
I look at our offense and see that we pound the ball into Morgan and everyone stands around. I don't see active cutting players moving. Then when Maverick is out of the game, Hill is trying to take over, but others are standing around. When TJ is in the game as a Freshman, you see the ball moving and see him hitting Finke, you see JCL moving, you see Maverick posting, you see Hill taking turns. However, I don't see that as a Coach-led inspiration, it comes off more that we have a true point guard that really understands the game. We hit offensive runs, we see cuts. The only problem is that we are so bad defensively when we get behind that we can't ever catch up.
If it was me, with this personnel, I would say try to outscore opponents. It's our only way unless we do some multi-positional out wing-fest you and out-hustle with a line-up of:
TJL
Hill
DJ
Kipper
Leron
or
Hill
JCL
Kipper
DJ
Leron
This would allow for speed, possibly defense, and athletes with a scorer in Hill or the facilitator in Hill and the shooter in JCL. We need to try something, but he won't. He will cling to one last hope that the players will figure it out in spite of him not utilizing ball movement as a space shooting team.
Yeah, I guess he didn't put up 16 like Thimble did against us.. 12 is still a decent amount of shots, especially when half of them are not good shots. I was more so speaking to Hill talking about needing to do more.. The whole team needs to do more, not one player trying to take things over. I agree, the coaches put them in a bad position, but he is not as good as everyone acts like he is.
Anyways, if you don't agree, that's fine by me... I know what I see out there, and I am tired of it.
You may very well be right, we'll see.
Excellent breakdown of the team.
Though I will disagree with you on one point. We have to defend and improve our defense if we are going to win some games. We don't have the talent to simply outscore teams. Your summation of the team's offensive talent tells us as much!
Coach Groce definitely needs to limit the minutes of those players that hinder the team's chance of success. The current combination of players and allotment of minutes is not the answer. It's obvious to everyone: Fans, tv announcers, opposing coaches.
Unfortunately, Coach Groce can't see it. Hopefully, some film study and instincts will kick in at some point, and Coach Groce will limit the number of minutes played by guys who have glaring holes in their games that get exposed any time they play against coaches and players in the BIG. This isn't the non-conference where you can get away with playing subpar players. This is the BIG. Elite coaches and elite players will not allow you to run out guys who can't get it done. The BIG exposes guys who aren't skilled enough or athletic enough or talented enough or healthy enough to compete at this level. Sadly, this team has some guys who fit the above criteria.
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Fair enough
he shot 50% though, so i have a hard time saying a lot were bad shots (i recall 1-2 that were bad). And again, hard for me to call a guy getting 5 assists from teh 3 position selfish..especially with our shooting % last night, couldve been 7-8.
He'll be all big 10 2nd team at worst when its all said and done, just like last year. At least the other coaches appreciate what he brings out there.
If we don't shoot +50% I don't see ant either it pretty damn tough
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