1/21 Games

[StateFarmCenter]

KSU just cut a double digit lead to 2 in about 50 seconds.

Minny fell to Wisconsin in OT

MSU beat by IU and in serious jeopardy of missing the tournament

 

[CoalCity]

KSU just cut a double digit lead to 2 in about 50 seconds.

Minny fell to Wisconsin in OT

MSU beat by IU and in serious jeopardy of missing the tournament

Maybe izzo will get fired and we can pick him up off the floor!

 

[OrangeKrus28]

KSU beating West VA. by 11 with under 9 left. Wow, just wow. Bruce Weber showing he can still coach even if his recruiting isn't on par w/the upper echelon in his conference.

 

[MadSeason]

Been watching this KSU game, they are losing it but still overall my takeaway, we should have never fired bruce

We should have fired Bruce sooner. That was the real mistake.

 

[Ramrod2010]

This game wouldn't be close if KSU could shoot better than 55% from the FT stripe.

 

[MadSeason]

Bruce wasnt the guy i get that,BUT bruce is such a better coach than Groce, we always competed under Bruce. I know this should be left to the coaching caroouel chat so I will leave it at that

Better than Groce I agree. Good enough for here? No way

 

[Illini1221]

We should have fired Bruce sooner. That was the real mistake.

I'd bet Bruce would've taken us to the tournament Groce's 2nd and 3rd year.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Better than Groce I agree. Good enough for here? No way

Yeah, Bruce found the right level for himself.

 

[Obelix]

I'd bet Bruce would've taken us to the tournament Groce's 2nd and 3rd year.

Yep, the same way when Frank Martin's recruits left, he took KSU to a 15-17 and 17-16 record.

As bad as Groce has been, the deterioration in our program from 2003 (when Bruce took over) to 2012 (when Bruce left) had been a lot more severe, than from 2012 (when Groce took over) until 2017. Just because Groce has been bad, does not negate the huge program deterioration under Weber.

 

[MadSeason]

Yeah, Bruce found the right level for himself.

I think so too. This team may buy him so grace with the fanbase.

 

[MadSeason]

Yep, the same way when Frank Martin's recruits left, he took KSU to a 15-17 and 17-16 record.

As bad as Groce has been, the deterioration in our program from 2003 (when Bruce took over) to 2012 (when Bruce left) had been a lot more severe, than from 2012 (when Groce took over) until 2017. Just because Groce has been bad, does not negate the huge program deterioration under Weber.

Absolutely not. It is why we are here today. I think you said it best in a post a few days ago, the guy inherited and absolute Ferrari ready to become a perennial power

 

[gibb52]

Not directed towards you in particular Obelix, but the level of Weber Derangement Syndrome by some on this board is truly something. The man just beat the same WVU team that whooped our !!! by 32 points, and he did it with less talent than Groce has on this team. Yet every time his name is evoked, it always inevitably deteriorates into a discussion of how poorly he did here. It's been 5 years since he left. Time to put out big boy pants on and get over it.

Fact: BAM cratered the IL BB program.

Fact: He hasn't been anything other than mediocre at KSU.

Fact: This years team looks promising and so far is playing some fun, interesting and winning BBall.

Fact: I'm not wearing any pants as I type this.

 

[StateFarmCenter]

Fact: BAM cratered the IL BB program.

Fact: He hasn't been anything other than mediocre at KSU.

Fact: This years team looks promising and so far is playing some fun, interesting and winning BBall.

Fact: I'm not wearing any pants as I type this.

He did win their first conference title in 36 years at KSU.

 

[MadSeason]

He did win their first conference title in 36 years at KSU.

With Martin's players and then promptly lost to a play in team in "2nd round" of NCAAs

 

[gibb52]

He did win their first conference title in 36 years at KSU.

Co-champions. But yes, did a solid job that year. Since then, not so much.

I'm glad he's not here, we'd only be mildly better off.

 

[Obelix]

Not directed towards you in particular Obelix, but the level of Weber Derangement Syndrome by some on this board is truly something. The man just beat the same WVU team that whooped our !!! by 32 points, and he did it with less talent than Groce has on this team. Yet every time his name is evoked, it always inevitably deteriorates into a discussion of how poorly he did here. It's been 5 years since he left. Time to put out big boy pants on and get over it.

Again, I believe I have said the same thing multiple times. You do not judge a coach based on just a good win, season, or team. Weber is a good coach because he beat WVU and is having a decent season? Why do you place emphasis on this win or season so far but ignore the fact that Weber failed completely at KSU the previous two seasons and went 15-17 and 17-16 (without even multiple injuries)? Didn't the same thing happen at UI? Did well with Self's recruits at first (see Frank Martin KSU), did terrible afterwards on his own (see last two seasons at KSU), did relatively well one season (2008-09 at UI, see KSU this year). Nobody says that Weber is not capable of a good season, but so far in his career at high-majors, he has not been the coach to have consistent success. And it is a pretty long career of 14-15 years.

If nothing else, we can evaluate his complete tenure at UI, this has happened already. If you think he will be a consistent winner at KSU, fine, but that is just your speculation about the future. When the future happens, you can gloat about his success at KSU, but not UI.

As far as negative impact to UI program, just ask yourself? Which one is the biggest negative drop in magnitude with respect to the state of the program? 2012 vs. 2003 or 2017 vs. 2012? Nobody claims that the UI program is in great shape in 2017. But the state of the program in 2012 vs. 2003 were light years apart.

I actually have hope that we can make up for the 2012 mistake (Groce), we lost some years, but recoverable, and IMO the pool of candidates (below A+ level) looks better this year. But the 2003 mistake (Weber) was simply unrecoverable, even in 2012. Weber? No thanks, terrible fit, tremendous negative impact to our program. JMO.

 

[Obelix]

When he took over, Illinois was on its 4th coach in 7 years and you couldn't look anywhere without reading about "Stepping Stone U". Morale was low.

Sorry, but that is bullcrap to put it mildly. Illinois was in great shape. Revisionist history at best. We have had great success and we had just enjoyed watching arguably the best freshman class (in terms of talent, not just rankings) in Illini history.

Selecting a coach on the criterion that he will likely stay here forever, is not only overrated, but it is just outright dangerous. If an Illini coach is successful, he will always have overtures from programs higher in the food chain or the NBA. That is a fact of life. I guess we should not select one of the hot brand name coaches again because other programs may try to steal him. A UI coach attracting interest from KU, UK, Duke, etc. is the highest compliment one can ever pay to our program. There is no guarantee a coach will ever stay at UI if successful.

If you tell me right now, without even knowing the name, that the next UI coach will have offers from UK, KU, UNC, and Duke in the next 3-4 years, I'll take it in a heartbeat. Even knowing that he may leave. Sign me up!

 

[RickBB]

Again, I believe I have said the same thing multiple times. You do not judge a coach based on just a good win, season, or team. Weber is a good coach because he beat WVU and is having a decent season? Why do you place emphasis on this win or season so far but ignore the fact that Weber failed completely at KSU the previous two seasons and went 15-17 and 17-16 (without even multiple injuries)? Didn't the same thing happen at UI? Did well with Self's recruits at first (see Frank Martin KSU), did terrible afterwards on his own (see last two seasons at KSU), did relatively well one season (2008-09 at UI, see KSU this year). Nobody says that Weber is not capable of a good season, but so far in his career at high-majors, he has not been the coach to have consistent success. And it is a pretty long career of 14-15 years.

If nothing else, we can evaluate his complete tenure at UI, this has happened already. If you think he will be a consistent winner at KSU, fine, but that is just your speculation about the future. When the future happens, you can gloat about his success at KSU, but not UI.

As far as negative impact to UI program, just ask yourself? Which one is the biggest negative drop in magnitude with respect to the state of the program? 2012 vs. 2003 or 2017 vs. 2012? Nobody claims that the UI program is in great shape in 2017. But the state of the program in 2012 vs. 2003 were light years apart.

I actually have hope that we can make up for the 2012 mistake (Groce), we lost some years, but recoverable, and IMO the pool of candidates (below A+ level) looks better this year. But the 2003 mistake (Weber) was simply unrecoverable, even in 2012. Weber? No thanks, terrible fit, tremendous negative impact to our program. JMO.

I agree with most of the stuff you post, but you don't need to convince the rest of us how much you hate Weber ....it's readily apparent.

It's pretty difficult to have high level success every single year. Kentucky has missed the NIT in the time since Calapari has been there. UConn won a national championship a few years ago and they are struggling....every team has its own dynamic, even if you have what is perceived as high level talent.

Weber would have had to reach elite 8s every year to keep the entire fan base happy because he's got a quirky personality...in hindsight he shouldn't have recruited Crandall and Richmond but he would have been skewered if he would have done that.

Does it really matter if Groce or Weber has been worse for the program? We all want better.

 

[Obelix]

I agree with most of the stuff you post, but you don't need to convince the rest of us how much you hate Weber ....it's readily apparent.

I respond to posts, that is what basketball message boards are for. I also quote the statements that I respond to.

Weber would have had to reach elite 8s every year to keep the entire fan base happy because he's got a quirky personality

I do not believe that is true. No coach at UI needs E8 every year to keep the entire fan base happy. Lon Kruger did not even make a single E8 in his tenure and kept the entire fan base pretty happy under more difficult circumstances. Self one E8. Posters like to think that the Illini fan base is much much different from other fan bases (at the same level) but that is not true IMO. We win, fans are happy. We do not need E8s, actually the bar for success is currently pretty low.

in hindsight he shouldn't have recruited Crandall and Richmond but he would have been skewered if he would have done that.

Other than Richmond, who did not pan out and only stayed 1 (ONE) year (with some limited success despite his problems), the excuse of Weber failing because of recruiting the "wrong" players and questionable characters is IMO simply an excuse. Crandall never became the player people expected but never caused many problems. Weber had many great kids/characters over his career: Frazier, DMac, Tisdale, Davis, Paul, DJ, Abrams, Egwu, Leonard, Cole, etc. Great kids, still failed.

Every coach will have some players who will not pan out, and Weber was no different. Yet, what happened to KSU the last 2 years? Recruited the wrong kids again?

I honestly believe Groce could have much more easily used that excuse, because he did recruit more kids (in less years) who ended up in trouble (on and off the court), many more than Weber, much higher percentage than normal. But that is no excuse either, a coach is responsible for his recruits. You get paid, and paid well, it is your responsibility. I did not see Weber giving back any of the money given to him by UI (even money not earned) for failing to recruit the "right" players.

 

[MadSeason]

And everyone would. You missed the point. The problem is rewriting history to pretend we were on the verge of becoming one of those programs. We certainly werent, and the only point we were you could even come close to such a point actually came under Weber.

Even if you give full credit to Weber for 2005 and give him credit for getting closest to the mountain top, you also must acknowledge that he ushered in a fall much greater than any of his predecessors. We went from perennial top 25, top of Big 10 and high NCAA seed to where we are now. Considering an NCAA invite a major accomplishment.

He failed to maintain a very good (not blue blood) program which had been going strong for 25 years prior to his arrival.

 

[MadSeason]

I agree with all that and I'm not trying to give him all of the credit for 2005 either. I don't want him near our program and he should have been fired earlier, but I do believe a lot of the hate is overblown since his own successes have somehow managed to prop up other coaches here.

More importantly we have survived stretches like the end of his tenure in the past. But now? 4 straight years with no tournament is unprecedented territory.

Hindsight is 20/20 but Groce was not capable of righting the ship that had gone of course like Kruger or Henson did. His abilities might have played well following Self, but he wasn't right guy after Weber.

 

[Obelix]

And everyone would. You missed the point. The problem is rewriting history to pretend we were on the verge of becoming one of those programs in 2003. We certainly werent, and the only point we were you could even come close to such a point actually came under Weber.

Totally disagree and not true at all. We were indeed on the verge of becoming one of those programs in 2003, and both Kruger and Self had established a very strong program. Even the transition, from Kruger to Self, became a huge positive, more than a negative disruption. Lon reinvigorated the program, got the foundation of success with some of his recruits, etc.

Self comes in and takes recruiting further, able to even now compete nationally, PR and image goes to new levels, best freshman class, CV, it is a dream come true. We WERE indeed on the verge to greatness.

The 2005 season that Weber had also elevated Self in the eyes of Illinois fans. I fully believe if Weber doesn't go 37-2 and go to the final 4, that Illini fans still think of the glory days of the 80s rather than fully refer to Self days.

The exact opposite was actually true. Self, until the moment he left, enjoyed unprecedented fan support. Weber elevated Self in the eyes of Illinois fans? Are we crazy here? When Self left, Weber did actually everything in his power to downgrade Self (including making stupid public comments) to try to appease the fans. Self became enemy number one, the bad coach. $elf, Bill $elfish, the coach who could not coach himself out of a paper bag, etc. Tremendous vitriol on Illini boards towards Self, unsupported, and fueled by Weber.

Self was actually elevated in the eyes of Illinois fans AFTER Weber failed (without Self's recruits), when reality started to settle back in with fans, that you know what? Self was a great coach, and despite leaving, he did indeed do great things at Illinois.

 

[RickBB]

I do not believe that is true. No coach at UI needs E8 every year to keep the entire fan base happy. Lon Kruger did not even make a single E8 in his tenure and kept the entire fan base pretty happy under more difficult circumstances. Self one E8. Posters like to think that the Illini fan base is much much different from other fan bases (at the same level) but that is not true IMO. We win, fans are happy. We do not need E8s, actually the bar for success is currently pretty low.

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying any coach needs E8s every year to be successful. Not if we think he connects with kids, most of the kids graduate and are decent but not perfect citizens and they make the tournament 7 of 10 years, are in the nit 1 or 2 years, and limit complete debacles of seasons to once out of every 10.

But Weber is a bit of a dork and he doesn't win press conferences and people don't see him and say "that's the guy who leads my team." If someone is the bullying type, they'd go punch him in the arm....that guy needs to have unreal success or someone can't wait to discount his ability and call for his job.

He's wasn't a good fit at Illinois. People get mad because mediocre and even bad coaches at the P5 level make well into 7 figures.

 

[MadSeason]

Self was actually elevated in the eyes of Illinois fans AFTER Weber failed (without Self's recruits), when reality started to settle back in with fans, that you know what? Self was a great coach, and despite leaving, he did indeed do great things at Illinois.

Weber's tenure definitely sobered up many an Illini fan.

I contend even Kruger and Henson are viewed more favorably because of Weber and now Groce.

 

[MadSeason]

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying any coach needs E8s every year to be successful. Not if we think he connects with kids, most of the kids graduate and are decent but not perfect citizens and they make the tournament 7 of 10 years, are in the nit 1 or 2 years, and limit complete debacles of seasons to once out of every 10.

But Weber is a bit of a dork and he doesn't win press conferences and people don't see him and say "that's the guy who leads my team." If someone is the bullying type, they'd go punch him in the arm....that guy needs to have unreal success or someone can't wait to discount his ability and call for his job.

He's wasn't a good fit at Illinois. People get mad because mediocre and even bad coaches at the P5 level make well into 7 figures.

Lou and Lon weren't particularly cool guys either but they made it work in much more difficult circumstances.

What Self left here is basically the right fit for any coach that has an ounce of ability. You really had to work hard not to keep Illinois rolling in those days. The roster Weber inherited was absolutely loaded. Probably the best since the Flyin Illini