2017 Coaching Carousel

[golferjohn1970]

Groce couldnt recruit well enough and it showed

Miller isn't happening. Arizona is a program that belongs in the same conversation as programs like MSU and Louisville. "The right price" doesn't lure a coach anywhere as some fans believe. If that were the case, Bill Self would currently be the head coach at Oklahoma State.

And I don't think Thomas necessarily "settled" on Groce. People like to point at his regular season record at Ohio, but his recruiting history as an assistant at tOSU was what made him an intriguing candidate. Someone who could recruit was what our fans wanted at the time because we knew Weber couldn't never lure the big names to Illinois. Groce has the ability to lure big recruits which is proven by him constantly being a finalist for those recruits. There isn't this mythical separation between coaches who can get into the top 3 and coaches who can land the recruit as some fans like to say. That's like saying that there's coaches who can get you to the Super Bowl, and coaches who can WIN the Super Bowl, which unfortunately there are casual fans out there who honestly believe that. If you are good enough to get big recruits' attention enough to be one of their finalists as quickly into your tenure as Groce was able to, then you are good enough to land those recruits. I'm not at all saying we should stick with Groce, I'm just trying to point some of the pure ignorance that casual fans like to run their mouths about because it is so annoying.

I completely disagree with your analysis about Groce. I know he has been a finalist with some top recruits (Alexander/Brunson/Bragg, etc) but he didn't land any of them. On top of that he is an average coach at best who parlayed one good run in 2012 to a Big Ten job. The combination of not getting enough talent especially at the PG and C positions and being an average coach and this is what happens. Other then Pitino he might be the worst game coach in the Big Ten. It's time to upgrade to a better game coach one who can make quality adjustment both in game and at halftime that can produce more wins year after year. JW will make the change in about 6 weeks and get a quality coach that can recruit as well as coach the kids he has.

 

[golferjohn1970]

Just say no to Capel

Keatts and Jeff Capel were on Evan Daniels' podcast today. Link to podcast on iTunes -- I haven't listened (yet) but may be worth listening to.

No way on Capel he is just like Groce can recruit okay but can't coach!! I like the Keatts possibility and will like it even more if he wins a few NCAA games and beats a good team in the process. I like Archie the best!!

 

[Golfer63]

I completely disagree with your analysis about Groce. I know he has been a finalist with some top recruits (Alexander/Brunson/Bragg, etc) but he didn't land any of them. On top of that he is an average coach at best who parlayed one good run in 2012 to a Big Ten job. The combination of not getting enough talent especially at the PG and C positions and being an average coach and this is what happens. Other then Pitino he might be the worst game coach in the Big Ten. It's time to upgrade to a better game coach one who can make quality adjustment both in game and at halftime that can produce more wins year after year. JW will make the change in about 6 weeks and get a quality coach that can recruit as well as coach the kids he has.

So if you were the GM of the Buffalo Bills back in the early 90s, would you have fired Marv Levy after losing all of those Super Bowls? I'm not at all attacking you I'm just saying that this is the mindset that a lot of casual fans have. It's the mindset that a lot of Bears fans have too, which is ultimately why Lovie got fired by them.
Again, I'm not saying Groce is the answer. He will be replaced after this year and rightfully so. I'm just pointing out that the notion that some coaches can "be a bridesmaid to elite recruits but can't land them" or "can reach the Super Bowl/big game but can't win it" is just ignorant.

 

[Golfer63]

And that's just off the top of my head, 5 years down the road.

I'm pretty sure Chris Collins indicated that he had no interest back then. Plus I think he is absolutely Duke-bound once K retires. Miles is interesting because I think he could build a program the right way, but that wasn't what we were looking for at the time. We were looking for a dynamic recruiter who had an up tempo type system that would be attractive to big time recruits.

I think the last 5 years should have taught us that it is important to build a culture like Wisconsin and Michigan State have first, because that will help your program stay good for a longer period of time. We can't just recruit our way back to prominence like Ohio State did because we all see how they have fallen the past few years. I don't want to be another 5 year wonder like we were back in the early 2000s. I want to get back to being that type of program and staying there long-term.

 

[89illinigrad]

Chris Collins and Tim Miles are the two I was screaming about at the time. Gregg Marshall was very available at the time. Lord knows I hate him but Josh Pastner was an option. Ben Jacobson was as much on the table then as now.

Had to look up their coaching history, because I don't recall Collins or Miles being particularly "hot" coaches at that time.

Collins was an assistant at Duke at that time and I think most fans wanted a "proven" coach, i.e. someone who had head coaching experience, which is why he probably wasn't even considered.

Miles wasn't exactly tearing it up at his gig at that time either. He was 71-88 at Colorado State and 28-50 in the Mountain West conference. Not exactly a resume that screams excellence. If Thomas had hired him, there probably would have been an uproar from fans.

Thomas may have "settled" for Groce after failing to land Shaka or Stevens, however, one could say that the Illini "settled" for JW, after failing to get Rick George or Craig Tiley. Sometimes you have to take a risk and it either pays off or it doesn't.

If I were JW, I would take a hard look at Keatts. He reminds me a lot of Self, a young up-and-coming coach who has improved the teams he inherited each year he's been there. The only thing Keatts is missing that Self had is a deep run in the Tourney (Self made the Elite 8 right before we hired him), which may happen this year.

 

[Golfer63]

Had to look up their coaching history, because I don't recall Collins or Miles being particularly "hot" coaches at that time.

Collins was an assistant at Duke at that time and I think most fans wanted a "proven" coach, i.e. someone who had head coaching experience, which is why he probably wasn't even considered.

Miles wasn't exactly tearing it up at his gig at that time either. He was 71-88 at Colorado State and 28-50 in the Mountain West conference. Not exactly a resume that screams excellence. If Thomas had hired him, there probably would have been an uproar from fans.

Thomas may have "settled" for Groce after failing to land Shaka or Stevens, however, one could say that the Illini "settled" for JW, after failing to get Rick George or Craig Tiley. Sometimes you have to take a risk and it either pays off or it doesn't.

If I were JW, I would take a hard look at Keatts. He reminds me a lot of Self, a young up-and-coming coach who has improved the teams he inherited each year he's been there. The only thing Keatts is missing that Self had is a deep run in the Tourney (Self made the Elite 8 right before we hired him), which may happen this year.

Has it been confirmed that Keatts was never involved in the scandal of Louisville hiring hookers for their recruits? I know that has been the biggest possible red flag about Keatts.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

If I were JW, I would take a hard look at Keatts.

:thumb:

 

[Tevo]

Anything less than a sweet 16 does nothing for me. Winning one game in the tournament as a 12 seed or something doesn't mean anything to me.

Even a Sweet 16 would annoy me because he'd likely be kept and he shouldn't be. Anyone can get hot for a couple games and win. It doesn't mean that coach has finally gotten good, or that they've turned a corner -- it just means the team got hot. This is the reason why "NCAA Tournament wins" should mean FAR FAR less than Conference Record when evaluating a coach, and why John Groce was a risky choice at best when he was hired.

 

[hermie1985]

Groce will lose his job in a few weeks for his perennial failure to finish top 6 in the BIG and making the tourney.

So is it easier to make the tourney as an automatic qualifier of a mid major or recruit the necessary talent to finish in the top 1/2 of the BIG? (Check out where Henson placed in conference in his first five years. T-7,6,7,7,T-6.)

This question holds the key to why a Gregg Marshall or Archie Miller stays put.

5 years to turn recruiting around at Illinois is a tall task. It requires getting a great first or second class and see them win by their 3rd year. Chicago basketball recruiting is tough and basically corrupt. This might be another reason you don't get the hottest mid major coach. Certainly makes it tough to get a Sean Miller.

 

[FollowTisdale]

Has it been confirmed that Keatts was never involved in the scandal of Louisville hiring hookers for their recruits? I know that has been the biggest possible red flag about Keatts.

If there was any confirmation of him being a part of it, he wouldn't have gotten the head coaching gig at UNCW. Honestly, that whole thing doesn't bother me, obviously not a good idea to hire hookers for your recruits but it's not like that kind of thing is going to happen again anywhere. Louisville was lucky to skate around it like they did.

:thumb:

Welcome to the Keatts Hype Train. I think I kicked you out of the captains seat awhile ago, but I need a first mate.

 

[Tevo]

This is a seeming popular opinion that I don't agree with at all. If Groce managed to turn this thing around and get us in the dance it would be a seriously impressive accomplishment. It likely mean going at least 6-3 and beating a couple really good teams.

I see the logic behind behind looking at the overall body of work, but getting us to the tournament would be an improvement in the program's direction.

It would only be an improvement over the lowly place Groce has taken the program over the previous four seasons! You can't hire a contractor to add an addition on your house, and then watch rupture your gas line, cut your water main, fry the wiring, and crack the foundation, and then when he happens to build a nice doghouse say, "Hey, I never thought you'd be able to do that! Keep going!"

 

[gibb52]

I think the most important thing JW before hiring a coach is reaching out to the Irvins and asking for their input. :hurl::crazy:

I sincerely hope that was sarcasm.

 

[Golfer63]

I sincerely hope that was sarcasm.

Hence the barf and crazy emojis. Yes it was.

God I cannot stand them.

 

[coryfor3]

Can I ask is Tom Crean in play possibly? I haven't read any articles that he might be fired does anyone know anything different? I know he's been on the hot seat the past few years but they were good last year and made the Sweet 16 so does that buy him at least another year after this? His contract is for at least 4 more years so that helps him too. Thoughts?

 

[89illinigrad]

If there was any confirmation of him being a part of it, he wouldn't have gotten the head coaching gig at UNCW. Honestly, that whole thing doesn't bother me, obviously not a good idea to hire hookers for your recruits but it's not like that kind of thing is going to happen again anywhere. Louisville was lucky to skate around it like they did.



Welcome to the Keatts Hype Train. I think I kicked you out of the captains seat awhile ago, but I need a first mate.

Can I have a seat on the train too? Whether JW hires Keatts or not, that guy is going to move on to something bigger and better soon and do well.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Welcome to the Keatts Hype Train. I think I kicked you out of the captains seat awhile ago, but I need a first mate.

Not cool man. I invented Kevin Keatts. I built that dude like Anthony Hopkins in Westworld.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

I'm pretty sure Chris Collins indicated that he had no interest back then.

Collins was very interested. As would just about any assistant coach when a Big Ten job opens up.

 

[Calvin]

He's not getting fired, I'd bet the farm on it. I'd also bet the farm on us hiring neither him nor Matta (if he's fired, which would be stupid by OSU but sounds like it might happen).

I'd wager a good sum on it as well. His team was doing pretty well up until the injuries. They were ranked in the top-10 not that many weeks ago. He lost a star in their leading scorer (Blackmon), a starter in Anunoby, who's out for the year, and has some other banged up guys. I don't think anyone expects them to be the same team. If Blackmon comes back, they could still make the dance.

 

[CoalCity]

It would only be an improvement over the lowly place Groce has taken the program over the previous four seasons! You can't hire a contractor to add an addition on your house, and then watch rupture your gas line, cut your water main, fry the wiring, and crack the foundation, and then when he happens to build a nice doghouse say, "Hey, I never thought you'd be able to do that! Keep going!"

Very good illustration! :thumb:

 

[Golfer63]

I'd wager a good sum on it as well. His team was doing pretty well up until the injuries. They were ranked in the top-10 not that many weeks ago. He lost a star in their leading scorer (Blackmon), a starter in Anunoby, who's out for the year, and has some other banged up guys. I don't think anyone expects them to be the same team. If Blackmon comes back, they could still make the dance.

I know he isn't getting fired, but how is the fan base feeling about him right now? Has he lost the fan base like Groce has here? I know a few years ago IU fans were done with him after his "We're Indiana! We don't play in the CBI!" season.

 

[Obelix]

Miles is interesting because I think he could build a program the right way, but that wasn't what we were looking for at the time.

How about Tim Miles has been a huge failure in the B1G. In three out of four seasons at Nebraska, he has finished with a losing overall record (not just conference) going 5-13, 5-13, and 6-12 in conference play. Bringing up Tim Miles as success in B1G in his tenure, is not only flat out wrong, but simply laughable.

 

[Kajagoogoo]

How about Tim Miles has been a huge failure in the B1G. In three out of four seasons at Nebraska, he has finished with a losing overall record (not just conference) going 5-13, 5-13, and 6-12 in conference play. Bringing up Tim Miles as success in B1G in his tenure, is not only flat out wrong, but simply laughable.

It continually amazes me how so many fans see the Illini hoops program as garbage. Why else are they suggesting such mediocre coaches for the impending opening? And why be fans of such a miserable team if this is how they see it?

 

[FollowTisdale]

Can I have a seat on the train too? Whether JW hires Keatts or not, that guy is going to move on to something bigger and better soon and do well.

You're in. Don't let Kakagoogoo on, make him run along the caboose awhile until he realizes that his Sean Miller imaginary boat ride is... well... imaginary.

Not cool man. I invented Kevin Keatts. I built that dude like Anthony Hopkins in Westworld.

Please, I'm eating up the hype like Tony ate up people.

 

[Golfer63]

How about Tim Miles has been a huge failure in the B1G. In three out of four seasons at Nebraska, he has finished with a losing overall record (not just conference) going 5-13, 5-13, and 6-12 in conference play. Bringing up Tim Miles as success in B1G in his tenure, is not only flat out wrong, but simply laughable.

He is also coaching at a traditional bottom feeding basketball program in Nebraska. Turning Nebraska into a winner is honestly a 10-15 year project. Miles should never be hired at a program like Illinois, but he is a good hire for a program like Nebraska. The fact that he led them to a tourney appearance a few years ago is an accomplishment.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

How about Tim Miles has been a huge failure in the B1G. In three out of four seasons at Nebraska, he has finished with a losing overall record (not just conference) going 5-13, 5-13, and 6-12 in conference play. Bringing up Tim Miles as success in B1G in his tenure, is not only flat out wrong, but simply laughable.

He hasn't been good. That's not the question. The question is who had the stronger resume in March 2012.