You forgot Damonte. If we get Smith we could play four PGs and Tilmon!
Good point! Imagine how difficult it would be to guard that team?
You forgot Damonte. If we get Smith we could play four PGs and Tilmon!
Good point! Imagine how difficult it would be to guard that team?
Unless you're the Flying IlliniOr how difficult it would be for them to guard much bigger players?
Or how difficult it would be for them to guard much bigger players?
So what's the point - Get rid of him because he may not get a point guard in the future or we are going to punish him for screwing up in the past.
I was at the game last night and watch every game I am not happy at all with where we have been but you have to give agree we now look good since Lucas has developed into a nice point guard. People wanting to ignore that are not being objective, if you know anything about basketball you can see he was worth several points on offense and defense over what we have put on the floor the last 3 or 4 years
Isn't it the coaches job to recruit the needs of their team? The fact that we have not had a PG until now falls squarely at the feet of John Groce and the Staff!
No question the defense is better and Groce and the team deserve credit for that. BUT, the 3 pt shooting has been unusually hot too - e.g., last night they shot 42% from 3. They don't win without that.
Are we hitting our 3's just because we're unusually hot or are we hitting them because we're getting better looks.No question the defense is better and Groce and the team deserve credit for that. BUT, the 3 pt shooting has been unusually hot too - e.g., last night they shot 42% from 3. They don't win without that.
Not trying to take any credit away from the team or Groce, but there's a chance we're getting fooled by a run fueled by hot shooting. Isn't that how Mike Thomas got us into this mess in the first place?
Last I checked the 2017 rankings we're not final and I fully believe that Frazier will be inside that magical Top 100 that everyone gets so excited about.We need to stop over inflating our recruits. Trent Frazier is borderline top-100 (107). He's no Dee Brown. Frazier is the composite 26th ranked PG. Lucas was the 29th. Both are solid recruits and Lucas is performing well of late, but let's not blow expectations out of the water. Damonte Williams is actually right there in the rankings with Frazier, 109 overall, 27th PG.
So taking 5 years to find a competent PG isn't "figuring it out?" And why couldn't he figure it out earlier in the season?
I would say that, if Groce is retained, the biggest reason for anyone to have optimism should be that his primary shortcomings have thus far been related to teaching/conveying concepts to his players when it comes to game planning and strategy.
You'll lose a lot of money betting on college basketball coaches to change their stripes in any regard, but I would rather have this be the area we need to change as opposed to him just not having a great sense of basketball strategy or if he couldn't personally relate to the players or get them to respond/buy in. Those two things are next to impossible to alter.
Last I checked the 2017 rankings we're not final and I fully believe that Frazier will be inside that magical Top 100 that everyone gets so excited about.
Regardless, TJL was ranked lower than Frazier and we've seen how much better the offense (and defense) runs with him at the point.
Finally, while TJL has shown some flashes on offense, Frazier is considered a better offensive player so , even if he's only a backup to TJL, he's a better option than Tate.
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FatGreg, while I don't necessarily agree with all of your points or find all of them to be likely, I think that is a solid post overall. Thanks for taking the time to put some thoughts down.
Yep, you're right. It may be a tossup between Frazier and Abrams. I think Frazier is probably quicker and a better shooter than Abrams, at least coming out of HS, but he won't have the experience the Abrams has.Recruiting rankings change very little, if at all, after the AAU season. Also, Frazier has to be better than/comparable to TA, not Tate, as TA is the backup PG
Thanks LLP. My only real point is that there's some room for optimism. I don't necessarily expect Groce to succeed in some dramatic, unprecedented way, but I think it's irrational to rule out the possibility of future improvement.
Likewise, I feel that Groce has had long enough to turn this thing around and I'd personally be excited for a change, but at the same time the rational position is to regard past failure as a sunk cost. Looking forward, the primary consideration should be what gives us the best chance of winning games and ultimately championships. There's no room for a punitive approach. It would be different if the team hadn't bounced back and made this late run. It would also be different if we had a weak recruiting class coming in, or if Groce was known to have poor relationships with HS/AAU teams, etc., etc.
If I were in Whitman's shoes, I'd likely dismiss JG unless he won a game in the NCAA tournament. However, regardless of whether that happens, if Whitman keeps Groce my point is that we're not bereft of hope. There are some indicators of potential improvement on the horizon.
Yep, you're right. It may be a tossup between Frazier and Abrams. I think Frazier is probably quicker and a better shooter than Abrams, at least coming out of HS, but he won't have the experience the Abrams has.
As to the rankings changing, it can happen (see Mark Smith), and Scout certainly thinks highly of Frazier (77th).
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But, TJL seems to have caught on pretty quickly.
Isn't Smith a case where he was injured for a while, though? Re-evaluations of guys coming off injuries certainly happen, but that is less applicable for Frazier who has had lots of time to be evaluated.
Plus Smith was a Mizzou commit in baseball up until this past summer (?) so probably wasn't getting a lot of attention from the guys evaluating players.
I don't think Smith was even playing AAU ball until last summer.
That's one thing with both Smith and Frazier: they played very little AAU ball relative to their apparent talent peers.
Frazier played mostly with a small AAU outfit and with his high school during springs and summers. He finally tried playing with a higher level team and rode the pine (similar to when Lovett, Jr played behind Brunson on MIF). That caused some to question his ability. Then, when he finally got into the spotlight in two big tourneys late last summer, he generated legit national buzz.
Smith mostly played baseball in favor of AAU basketball. When he finally got in front of evaluators, he was recovering from injury. Until this year, he was very good for Edwardsville, but not regarded as a basketball prospect due to his standing as a MLB pitching prospect. He also really just reached his athletic/conditioning potential this year.
The commonality is that there's some reason to suspect that both are underrated due to lack of national exposure. They're both absolutely dominant high school players and unequivocally P5 level run/jump athletes. To some extent, Tilmon also suffered from an inability to finish out the AAU season due to injury. He was looking like a MDAA caliber player before he got hurt.
Some of the optimism about this recruiting class is typical wishful thinking, but the anticipation isn't wholly unfounded.