2017 Coaching Carousel

[Tevo]

I think everyone knows I'm a hoops junkie, an alum, and a huge fan, but Illini basketball is ultimately not something that affects my life very much. Sports in general is a low-priority pastime. If the Illini lose in demoralizing fashion (like against Rutgers the other day), it doesn't ruin my day. I turn off the TV and basically forget it ever happened until I'm bored at work and make a post or two the next day. I frequently miss important games because my wife wants to get dinner or it's somebody's birthday, or whatever.

It's just sports. It's a distraction. ... I have opinions about Illini sports, but at the end of the day it's whatever. Perspective.

For me, sports are about social interactions. I love my teams much more than I love the sports. I will seldom watch another college basketball game just because it's on -- I have other things to do. But I will record every Illini game. I'll watch Bears games, but not a random NFL game. I'll watch the Bulls, but not a random NBA game. For me, I like interacting with other fans -- of my teams and others. I like teasing my Big Ten friends, commiserating about failures, etc. And it's a lot more fun to interact with fellow fans when your team does well. It's a lot more fun watching those games when your team does well.

I love the Illini, and really want them to be good, and really want them to get a new coach so they can start being good again. If they aren't good, I won't stop being a fan, but I won't enjoy the games, nor will I enjoy my interactions with friends and (friendly) foes as much.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

Honestly wish I could be as unemotional as many here claim to be ... I was devastated after the Rutgers loss. I live and die with the Illini, in the relative moment. Obviously, I am going to move on with my life at some point, and it IS just a game ... but holy cow, this is a big passion of mine. I want Illinois to return to the heights it has proven on SO many occasions it is capable of (consistently ranked, in the Tournament and hoping for an NCAA run) in the past. I see how it affects my dad when they lose, and I inherited that. Especially living in Iowa City, it's absolutely something I cling to as a family tradition (rooting on the Illini). I'll be extremely disappointed if we don't move on when it's just so blatantly clear that Groce is not the guy to get us back to where we have historically been.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

For me, sports are about social interactions. I love my teams much more than I love the sports. I will seldom watch another college basketball game just because it's on -- I have other things to do. But I will record every Illini game. I'll watch Bears games, but not a random NFL game. I'll watch the Bulls, but not a random NBA game. For me, I like interacting with other fans -- of my teams and others. I like teasing my Big Ten friends, commiserating about failures, etc. And it's a lot more fun to interact with fellow fans when your team does well. It's a lot more fun watching those games when your team does well.

I love the Illini, and really want them to be good, and really want them to get a new coach so they can start being good again. If they aren't good, I won't stop being a fan, but I won't enjoy the games, nor will I enjoy my interactions with friends and (friendly) foes as much.

ALSO THIS. Sorry, but in American male culture, your sports team is worn like a badge of honor and a reflection of who you are in your friend group. Obviously, it's kind of a joke, and no one will like you any less if your team is bad, but it's FUN when your team beats someone else's. It fills most people with a sense of pride, and it fills most people with the exact opposite when their teams lose.

 

[Domillini87]

Here's where I am at.

Saturday- Cussing at the TV- Ready to give him the termination notice myself

Sunday- Starting to look at other coaches

Monday- Still kind of looking at coaches, Realizing that options for coaches are very slim this this year

Tuesday- Starting to think that I might be ok with Groce coming back

Today- Remembering he has been a good ambassador for our program, there is not from what I've seen other teams openly mocking our coach (see Kansas and Weber), Remembering him picking DJ Richardson off the locker room floor after the Miami and listening to one of my favorite Illini post-game speeches. Thinking back to our better recruiting this year, and how much I really like this class coming in.

Now- Ready to have Groce back this next year even if that means extending him-. He's young, he can recruit, He's personable, and he's been taking responsibility this year instead of throwing his players under the bus to save his job.

If we still don't make the tourney this year, I'll be disappointed, but I believe we have better days ahead of us. We'll see how I feel at 2 pm tomorrow though.

 

[TooHot4Tots]

Spring cleaning is always a fun time of year.

 

[FatGreg]

My Reply:

Each person decides how important (or not) any sport or team is to them. Many people are OK with mediocrity because that is where the sport/team falls in their value system. Nothing wrong with that. But many of us also place a high value on a team because that is what it means to US. Nothing wrong with that either. We are uncomfortable with mediocrity in Illini basketball. There is no reason why a State with the tradition and yearly talent pool that Illinois has should be satisfied with being mediocre. We know the reasons WHY they are mediocre. But they are not GOOD reasons.

I'm all for the Illini doing what it takes to win and I agree that our university should be as successful in sports as it is in the classroom and research lab. However, at the risk of sounding holier-than-thou, the success of your favorite teams can't be that important overall, right? Not when we're dealing with a fractured national identity, profound geopolitical instability, unspeakable poverty, climate change, and a shifting technology landscape (including the imminent threat of mass technological unemployment and the potential emergence of general AI, which may pose catastrophic risks to civilization).

That's why sports is an escape...you take a break from real problems and watch a game. If you consider the Illini coaching situation a real problem...I just don't get it. Except to note that it's the definition of privilege and maybe an indictment of western society. Ha, sorry to disparage anyone's values.

 

[tpbradley]

Spring cleaning is always a fun time of year.

Did you say Spring Creaning?

 

[Roundball Shaman]

I'm all for the Illini doing what it takes to win and I agree that our university should be as successful in sports as it is in the classroom and research lab. However, at the risk of sounding holier-than-thou, the success of your favorite teams can't be that important overall, right? Not when we're dealing with a fractured national identity, profound geopolitical instability, unspeakable poverty, climate change, and a shifting technology landscape (including the imminent threat of mass technological unemployment and the potential emergence of general AI, which may pose catastrophic risks to civilization).

That's why sports is an escape...you take a break from real problems and watch a game. If you consider the Illini coaching situation a real problem...I just don't get it. Except to note that it's the definition of privilege and maybe an indictment of western society. Ha, sorry to disparage anyone's values.

I can (almost) completely agree with everything you said. We know that sports in one sense is a lot about nothing. But from your point about national identity, geopolitical instability, etc., this is where I jump off. As the really important problems intensity and multiply, our sense of powerlessness and national fracture grow. We need something tribal to feed our souls. We need something we can feel good about. We need something from our past to hold on to and be proud of in a world that seeks to strip us of our identity and sense of worth. We NEED our sports teams more than ever. Yes, in a real sense sports is a distraction from the problems of life and ultimately meaningless. But in other sense, sports is a way we can hold on to ourselves and feel better about facing real problems out there. Sports can be a way to hold ON to what is important as well.

 

[zpfled]

I kind of get this, but kind of don't.

I mean, I am incredibly bummed that Malcolm Hill is likely not going to ever get to play in an NCAA tournament game, which I would imagine you are, too. Don't you want to lessen the likelihood that future players have that experience? I do.

Yeah, most of the reason I want Illinois in the tourney is for Malcolm's sake.

I suppose I don't care about future players as much because they are mostly hypothetical right now, and I don't care about hypothetical people as much as I care about current players and staff.

 

[Rafale]

I was thinking about this...and I think I'm actually ok with mediocrity in my favorite basketball team.



DISCLAIMER: Before anyone tries to share a life lesson with me about how high expectations are important in life, let me make it perfectly clear that I am just talking about basketball here. Illinois basketball is, for me, a passive hobby. I enjoy watching the games when I can, I enjoy the banter and 'news' on this site, but it's not super important to me.



Back to my point. The reason I like Illinois basketball is because I get attached to the players and coaches. Sure, I went to Illinois, but I'm not particularly attached to the school. If I took a hiatus from following Illinois basketball for 5 years and tried to come back and be a fan again, I don't think I'd be that into it. The reason I watch is because I root for the people on the floor and bench.



So I still kind of want Groce to stay, just because I like him and any new coach is, at this point, a stranger who I don't care about. When I look at his record at Illinois, it's pretty dismal. But I see legitimate reasons for the bad seasons, and I see corrections (finally recruiting the PG position well, getting an elite big man). Expecting improvement next year isn't "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" because next year there is a new roster and I believe that players are fundamentally the most important factor in a team's success (coaching is important, sure, but not nearly as important as talent*).



So...yeah, I accept mediocrity, and hope for growth/improvement. I just don't care enough--and never have--to "demand" excellence.



* I recognize that you can have GREAT talent and TERRIBLE coaching and suck, i.e. Lorenzo Romar. But I don't think you can have much success with GREAT coaching and sub-average talent.

I guess it's a good thing that you aren't in the head coaching business. I'm not either but I'm not a big fan of mediocrity in general. I also disagree thinking that you CAN have success with average talent and GREAT coaching. Bill Belichick is a great coach who has had success some years with just average talent due to injuries (Tom Brady aside). A few years ago, their entire receiving corp was either lost to injury or free agency. They picked up some "no names" plugged them in and still ended up in their usual spot, the AFC Championship game. That is great coaching ....Having a system in place that can tolerate a bit of variation without high risk of failure. Same can be said of great BB coaches like Coach K, Self, Calipari, Patino, Izzo, etc. In business we would call it "robustness". Haven't seen anything like that in Champaign since Self left.


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[FatGreg]

I can (almost) completely agree with everything you said. We know that sports in one sense is a lot about nothing. But from your point about national identity, geopolitical instability, etc., this is where I jump off. As the really important problems intensity and multiply, our sense of powerlessness and national fracture grow. We need something tribal to feed our souls. We need something we can feel good about. We need something from our past to hold on to and be proud of in a world that seeks to strip us of our identity and sense of worth. We NEED our sports teams more than ever. Yes, in a real sense sports is a distraction from the problems of life and ultimately meaningless. But in other sense, sports is a way we can hold on to ourselves and feel better about facing real problems out there. Sports can be a way to hold ON to what is important as well.

Dig that. Whatever keeps each person grounded. :shakehands:

 

[zpfled]

I guess it's a good thing that you aren't in the head coaching business. I'm not either but I'm not a big fan of mediocrity in general. I also disagree thinking that you CAN have success with average talent and GREAT coaching. Bill Belichick is a great coach who has had success some years with just average talent due to injuries (Tom Brady aside). A few years ago, their entire receiving corp was either lost to injury or free agency. They picked up some "no names" plugged them in and still ended up in their usual spot, the AFC Championship game. That is great coaching ....Having a system in place that can tolerate a bit of variation without high risk of failure. Same can be said of great BB coaches like Coach K, Self, Calipari, Patino, Izzo, etc. In business we would call it "robustness". Haven't seen anything like that in Champaign since Self left.


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Pro players are all super-elite talents...the difference between the best pros and the worst pros is FAR smaller than the difference between the best college players and the worst college players.

Football is totally different than basketball, and football coaches play a more important role in game strategy.

Coach K, Self, Calipari, Pitino, Izzo...these are your examples of great coaches who can succeed with average talent? Cool.

 

[CAHALL15]

Neither Whitman nor Groce have alluded to anything. Neither is dumb enough to do so.

I would respectfully disagree as their silence or refusal to talk about the future seems to give credence that his job is on the line. I won't get caught up on the meaning of a single word, however.

If the deal has been tourney or bust, then Whitman can't clear the air until Selection Sunday. I have no idea if that's the deal, obviously.

I've considered this and it makes sense. Again, if Groce was going to return no matter the result, I'd think that Whitman would have said so.

 

[BananaShampoo]

Pro players are all super-elite talents...the difference between the best pros and the worst pros is FAR smaller than the difference between the best college players and the worst college players.

Football is totally different than basketball, and football coaches play a more important role in game strategy.

Coach K, Self, Calipari, Pitino, Izzo...these are your examples of great coaches who can succeed with average talent? Cool.

Bo Ryan, Belein, and Greg Marshall (and yes actually Izzo belongs in that group, too) would be better examples of great X's and O's coaches. Still, the counterexamples to guys like that are Lorenzo Romar, Travis Ford, and yes, even Groce. Those are guys who even if given superior talent are going to underachieve relative to that talent. They've proven it over time.

I'll take the guys who's teams are going to perform year in and year out despite the level of talent they've accumulated, and some years when they get lucky with the right mix will have a much higher probability of taking their team far into the Tourney than a Romar or Groce or Ford. It's always been a sort of running joke how people would place Wiscy below the Top 4 in the B1G and yet every year not matter how mediocre everyone thought they'd be they would always end up in the same place - at or near the top of the league. Izzo, no matter what happens during the course of a season as far as injuries, attrition, etc, always has his team in the tourney and playing their best ball of the season in March. It's a given as sure as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. All of that is due to great coaching.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a team that is consistently decent with solid but not elite basketball players and has a floor of the Top 5 in the B1G every year with the occasional really great tourney run to a team with NBA talent all over whose floor is bottom of the league and in a good year might squeak into the tourney and make the second round. The latter seems to be the best we can expect from Groce, and that's why I'm all on board with making a change.

 

[zpfled]

Bo Ryan, Belein, and Greg Marshall (and yes actually Izzo belongs in that group, too) would be better examples of great X's and O's coaches. Still, the counterexamples to guys like that are Lorenzo Romar, Travis Ford, and yes, even Groce. Those are guys who even if given superior talent are going to underachieve relative to that talent. They've proven it over time.

I'll take the guys who's teams are going to perform year in and year out despite the level of talent they've accumulated, and some years when they get lucky with the right mix will have a much higher probability of taking their team far into the Tourney than a Romar or Groce or Ford. It's always been a sort of running joke how people would place Wiscy below the Top 4 in the B1G and yet every year not matter how mediocre everyone thought they'd be they would always end up in the same place - at or near the top of the league. Izzo, no matter what happens during the course of a season as far as injuries, attrition, etc, always has his team in the tourney and playing their best ball of the season in March. It's a given as sure as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. All of that is due to great coaching.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a team that is consistently decent with solid but not elite basketball players and has a floor of the Top 5 in the B1G every year with the occasional really great tourney run to a team with NBA talent all over whose floor is bottom of the league and in a good year might squeak into the tourney and make the second round. The latter seems to be the best we can expect from Groce, and that's why I'm all on board with making a change.

When have Beilein and Izzo achieved great results with average talent? They always have good to great talent.

Ryan is a freakin genius, and a rarity. I can't say that I've paid a lot of attention to Wichita State, so I can't say much about Marshall except that he's impressive too, although he coaches in a fairly crappy conference...so I'm not putting him in the same category as Ryan.

On the other hand, Groce has been coaching at Illinois without a good PG for basically the whole time until the last handful of games...and our 'good PG' is a freshman 3-star who is showing promise. Of course roster-building is his responsibility, but he's certainly not in the same category as Ford or Romar who have truly elite talent being squandered.

Sure, there are a (small) handful of exceptions, but I'm sticking to "talent is more important than Xs and Os" as a rule.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

Tough day here in the Coaching Carousel thread.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

I'll say one more thing before I let this go. Not having gone to Illinois and having grown up most of my life in a bordering state (where the people literally HATE the state of Illinois), it is really disheartening to see people wanting UI athletics to resemble, for lack of better phrase, "East Central Illinois" attitudes. We aren't a lovely little small state where everyone loves the home team and everyone is friendly and everyone is forever loyal. We're not a homey college with a local feel. We are the state flagship university for a massive state of 13 million people (5 million of which have NOTHING to do with the Chicago area, if someone is going to start that BS about it being a separate state, disregarding it has over 225,000 of our alumni!) with a massive alumni base, world class academics, huge media markets covering us and a rich tradition to draw from. We shouldn't and, quite frankly, CAN'T settle for results that would fly at Minnesota. Anything below excellence SHOULD be unacceptable, but given how things have shaken out, I understand not having the cajones to come out and say we should be challenging Ohio State and Michigan and Penn State in everything EVERY year ... but holy cow, if our own fans don't believe in the IMMENSE potential here, why should any recruits or prospective fans or media personalities who drive the narrative around the Illini?! It starts with our loyal fans, and the attitudes displayed here by some (a desire for anything less than the Illini to be a force in the Big Ten) are just disappointing.

When Iowa fans love Fran for what he's accomplished and have a fierce, small-timey loyalty to "Coach," it's somewhat understandable, maybe even a little bit commendable. They have a mediocre history, are in a tiny state (that they share with another power 5 team with a large alumni base and no academic requirements restricting it from success) and have far inferior facilities ... when our fans act the same way, it's just simply pathetic.

 

[OrangeSoda]

Danny Manning.

 

[zpfled]

Kevin Ollie

 

[IntenselyOrange]

For my part, I want Illinois to strive for excellence and make strategic decisions based on unemotional business calculations. But I'll root for them regardless, and it's nice to root for people you like. This is a likable team from top to bottom.

I think everyone knows I'm a hoops junkie, an alum, and a huge fan, but Illini basketball is ultimately not something that affects my life very much. Sports in general is a low-priority pastime. If the Illini lose in demoralizing fashion (like against Rutgers the other day), it doesn't ruin my day. I turn off the TV and basically forget it ever happened until I'm bored at work and make a post or two the next day. I frequently miss important games because my wife wants to get dinner or it's somebody's birthday, or whatever.

It's just sports. It's a distraction. Real life is about family, friends, career, health, political participation, humanitarian work, etc. If Illini basketball is truly one of the most important things in your day-to-day life - if your emotions rise and fall with the wins and losses and it affects your sense of happiness and wellbeing...I guess I think that's weird and unhealthy. This is just for fun. When it's not fun, do something else. I think that's more or less what zpfled was getting at. I'm right there with him. I have opinions about Illini sports, but at the end of the day it's whatever. Perspective.

I get that and you can add me to the group of people who have this outlook. Like most people, I'm busy. Illinois basketball is no longer appointment television for me. I like to watch games. I watched on Saturday. But I watched because I didn't have anything better to do. It was cold out and my kid just wanted to play xbox instead of going out and shooting baskets or throwing a ball around. So I watched. He loves college basketball, but won't watch Illinois games with me.

My lack of enthusiasm, which began last year, is why I have been disappointed that Groce was retained for this season and struggle to comprehend the fear of things getting worse. I've checked out. I guess that's relative given that I'm posting here, but that's the case. For me, whether they are 9th in the conference or 13th matters little. It doesn't anger me. I don't throw things at the TV. I simply find better things to do. And there used to be few things that were better to do than watch Illinois basketball.

 

[Roundball Shaman]

Tough day here in the Coaching Carousel thread.

The State of Illinois talent pool has basically been a farm team for many of the top bball programs in the country for many years. You all know the names that got away, and may soon get away if things don't change for the better. The Illini head coaching position also should not be a job training program for any coach that hasn't delivered much in several years. Nor should the Illini be a head coaching farm team for the programs that vacuum up all the top level talent each year and steal our (Self)s away. That grows old very fast. Let some of the out-of-state talent come to Champaign for a change. Let the other states become the Illini farms teams. And whomever the coach is, start filling the trophy case with the good trophies ASAP.

 

[Goldtop]

The State of Illinois talent pool has basically been a farm team for many of the top bball programs in the country for many years. You all know the names that got away, and may soon get away if things don't change for the better. The Illini head coaching position also should not be a job training program for any coach that hasn't delivered much in several years. Nor should the Illini be a head coaching farm team for the programs that vacuum up all the top level talent each year and steal our (Self)s away. That grows old very fast. Let some of the out-of-state talent come to Champaign for a change. Let the other states become the Illini farms teams. And whomever the coach is, start filling the trophy case with the good trophies ASAP.

You mean like Frazier, JCL, Black, TJL, KN

 

[gibb52]

I get that and you can add me to the group of people who have this outlook. Like most people, I'm busy. Illinois basketball is no longer appointment television for me. I like to watch games. I watched on Saturday. But I watched because I didn't have anything better to do. It was cold out and my kid just wanted to play xbox instead of going out and shooting baskets or throwing a ball around. So I watched. He loves college basketball, but won't watch Illinois games with me.

My lack of enthusiasm, which began last year, is why I have been disappointed that Groce was retained for this season and struggle to comprehend the fear of things getting worse. I've checked out. I guess that's relative given that I'm posting here, but that's the case. For me, whether they are 9th in the conference or 13th matters little. It doesn't anger me. I don't throw things at the TV. I simply find better things to do. And there used to be few things that were better to do than watch Illinois basketball.

Pretty much where I am right now as well.

 

[cam]

I guess I am really strange for the thread because Illinois Basketball is my favorite sport, I set my schedule by it and absolutely watch every minute of every game, sometimes on tape without knowing the results. I am upset when we lose and very happy with wins and I still have leaned toward bringing Groce back because I want to see him coach a team with some real good point guards and I think he can with them. I guess I should want him gone but I just feel like better days are ahead

 

[Roundball Shaman]

You mean like Frazier, JCL, Black, TJL, KN

You have correctly identified a trend that I noticed early this season. With the exception of Who-Know-Who, our best players all came from out of state. Yes, our current Orange tie wearer can get some credit for those guys. But even with them, you see where our tournament prospects stand tonight. And this also speaks to a lack of attracting many of the blue chippers from the Land of Lincoln. But I'm not picky. Give me the Fours and Fives from anywhere and I'll be happy.