My biggest take from the WF game is our Zone offense....it just didn't have a good flow or feel to it....it appeared that we struggled to get good shots and we didn't get the ball to the middle of he defense enough imo....did the officiating have something to do with that...maybe...but on several possessions we didn't look to penetrate or pass the ball to the interior and then kick it out....I'm sure we will see a lot more zone def over the next few weeks ......now having said all this we still scored 73 pts....but it just didn't look like we were comfortable running our zone offense....everything else I think we'll be fine
Wake Forest 80, Illinois 73 POSTGAME
Yes, absolute hose job. It isn't just the points they got on the fouls, it affected how Illinois could play and momentum/flow is a very real thing in basketball. Two fouls on Mark Smith in the first half were about the tackiest fouls I can remember (one of them I don't think he even touched the other player). Finke's box out foul... Man I'm surprised the refs didn't award Moore an extra 2 points for tipping the 3 ball in to make it a 5 point shot and then award them the ball after because apparently boxing out is now a big no-no. Also, Leron is lethal in mid-range when he gets his shoulders square to the hoop. He cannot create his own shot and needs to stop trying, especially against players half a foot taller than him. Double ditto that for Kipper. Those two have played some seriously selfish offensive hoops this year and they aren't very good when they try to force this stuff. Within the flow of the offense they are very effective players though. I just wish they would stay within themselves a little better and quit putting the ball on the floor.
Watched it about 6 times right afterwards to make sure I was seeing it right. No accident and completely uncalled for. Danny Manning talking to BU after the game - probably said “watch the last three seconds of the game”. Whatever he said it was very brief and understood. BU looked like he was already walking towards Manning when the elbow was thrown- might not even have saw it.
It took twice as long to score our 2nd 20 points than it did our first 20. This is what cost us.
You know you're goin not get any calls on the road, but at least expect the rules to be followed. My question, maybe I don't know the rules, is with about four sixteen to go in the first half, the refs blew the whistle on an illini possesion and wake went and shot free throws. Was it an offensive foul on kipper? DO offensive fouls allow the other team to shoot free throws? I was as perplexed by this as the rebounding foul on the goaltended 3. any clue from fellow fans?
You know you're goin not get any calls on the road, but at least expect the rules to be followed. My question, maybe I don't know the rules, is with about four sixteen to go in the first half, the refs blew the whistle on an illini possesion and wake went and shot free throws. Was it an offensive foul on kipper? DO offensive fouls allow the other team to shoot free throws? I was as perplexed by this as the rebounding foul on the goaltended 3. any clue from fellow fans?
GortTheRobot
- North Bethesda, Maryland
Just don't play Groceball. Hated that passing around the perimeter then. I'm hating it now. What happened to the seven-second offense?
Had a little to do with the 12' guy they had in the middle, but I would have liked to see more guys get into the high post and pass in and out of it.
Hope to see more of that against NW. I agree with others, win this one and the sting of that loss to the zebras...sorry...deacons, won't sting as much.
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I don't remember that exact play, but it used to be that offensive fouls did NOT result in free throws.
We were hot shooting out of the gate --that's part of it. But I agree we were taken out of our game too easily as Wake started to adjust, and the refs were a factor. Underwood has done a lot to change the culture and habits, but we're really thin at center, and a team like Wake matched up well against us. I'm a bit surprised at how many of our guys looked tentative.
Thinking about it, we're a small-ball team, thin at center, so we practice against a small ball team that's thin at center. Wake is not at all like that and we weren't able to adjust on the fly. Just need more experience against a team with some good bigs. Remember, we have three freshman getting good minutes, as everyone being new to Underwood's system. The one guy you'd think might be plug-n-play (Alstork) seems to also be having trouble adjusting as well.
Or maybe motivate him? Isn't that a traditional coaching technique? Bench a guy who isn't playing up to expectations in order to motivate him to work his way back into the starting line up?
I'm not sure that we played better than Wake. They hit a lot of clutch shots, drove to the lane at will and forced foul calls, which we could not match. I also think the refs were leaning toward the home team, but what's the point of whining and complaining about it? I'd rather not hear it, although I understand the purpose of a fan message board. In the end, good teams overcome bad officiating. Again, this is a young team learning a brand new system playing their first real away game. They will get better, and after watching BU's comments after the game, I am strangely optimistic.
A few thoughts on the game:
1) Officiating was pretty bad but we played down to the officiating and a bad WF team.
2) We are extremely thin upfront at 4/5. I know... positionless this and positionless that, but we simply do not have enough in the frontcourt. As much as fans think we can find diamonds in the rough late, reality is that if you end up scrabbling late for size/talent, what you end up with may not be up to par. That is especially true for big men who take longer to develop. Unfortunately, this looks like a problem for next year as well.
3) Unless we upgrade overall talent, the bar will remain on just making the tournament every single year. I know the popular belief around here that talent has not been the problem, yada, yada, yada... with good coaching etc., etc., etc. but to consistently win and compete in the B1G we need a serious upgrade beyond talent levels in the last 12 years (with the lone exception of 2010-11).
4) Leron has to do a better job controlling his emotions and temper. Given his long history, the last play was as accidental as Grayson Allen tripping somebody... by accident.
1) Officiating was pretty bad but we played down to the officiating and a bad WF team.
2) We are extremely thin upfront at 4/5. I know... positionless this and positionless that, but we simply do not have enough in the frontcourt. As much as fans think we can find diamonds in the rough late, reality is that if you end up scrabbling late for size/talent, what you end up with may not be up to par. That is especially true for big men who take longer to develop. Unfortunately, this looks like a problem for next year as well.
3) Unless we upgrade overall talent, the bar will remain on just making the tournament every single year. I know the popular belief around here that talent has not been the problem, yada, yada, yada... with good coaching etc., etc., etc. but to consistently win and compete in the B1G we need a serious upgrade beyond talent levels in the last 12 years (with the lone exception of 2010-11).
4) Leron has to do a better job controlling his emotions and temper. Given his long history, the last play was as accidental as Grayson Allen tripping somebody... by accident.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Some of you can analyze and throw out overly dramatic statements all you want, but this is really quite simple in my eyes: losing sucks, we have some talent and we're just not there yet. Go sack up your state pride and beat Northwestern in what will hopefully be a very Illini-friendly crowd and prepare for Maryland at home ... starting 2-0 in the Big Ten would be a REALLY nice recovery from that loss!
Because this was not just regular "Leaning towards the home team". There was blatant manipulations of the rules and inexplicable calls AFTER going to the monitors. I don't care what you think about how our guys played in comparison to wake. The discrepancies were blatant and abhorrent and we still managed to keep it a close game. Take away the gifted 15 points and we win easily if not that pretty (AND notice... those 15 points I mention do not include the actual Free throws they deserved)
Illwinsagain
- Cary, IL
Watched the whole game on DVR after following the game thread for the first half as I was waiting for my daughter's dance class to end....First of all, I love the epic swings of emotion on the game threads. Yeah, people are either jumping off a bridge or anointing the team the best evah....but it shows the passion (or craziness) of the fanbase.
I cautiously anticipated a win, but as most people are saying, a road loss against an ACC team won't be seen as a bad loss by the committee unless Wake loses every single game the rest of the year by 30. They don't watch every game of every team in consideration for the tournament...they see "Illinois lost in the B10-ACC challenge on the road, no biggie". I'd guess most people in the season prediction thread didn't have this as a win even if the had Illinois making the tournament....that thought only began after Wake started 2-4 more than our 6-0 start.
Ref's impacted the flow of the game and I agree that momentum is real in basketball. Do they do it on purpose...I've not no clue. I'd hope not, but I'd be naive to think every college ref couldn't be persuaded by someone to do something. My biggest issue is the Pandora's box with Replay...in all sports. You can't have some things be reviewable and some things not. If you are watching a replay, and see an infraction or violation, then you have to call it. If you think Alstork did a soccer flop when he supposedly got elbowed then T him up (or whatever the punishment is there)....you can't say "OH, I breathed to had through my whistle, I didn't mean to blow it." And if they didn't call the goaltend on the infamous 5 or 6 point possession in the first place, why did they even go to the monitor? Foul on Finke, debatable, but I've seen that foul called before even though I think it's stupid, but there was no one else it could have even been on...why are you going to the monitor..if you go to the monitor, its a goaltend.
Now I'm rambling....all in all...I expected more from Alstork, I think Smith is deferring too much, and when Finke is in we have to play zone, he's just too slow to do the hedge and recover, and he's going to get fouls called on him 25 feet from the hoop which hurt us. Oh, and our zone offense isn't great, but I think that's because they had a giant in the middle who was pretty good.
I cautiously anticipated a win, but as most people are saying, a road loss against an ACC team won't be seen as a bad loss by the committee unless Wake loses every single game the rest of the year by 30. They don't watch every game of every team in consideration for the tournament...they see "Illinois lost in the B10-ACC challenge on the road, no biggie". I'd guess most people in the season prediction thread didn't have this as a win even if the had Illinois making the tournament....that thought only began after Wake started 2-4 more than our 6-0 start.
Ref's impacted the flow of the game and I agree that momentum is real in basketball. Do they do it on purpose...I've not no clue. I'd hope not, but I'd be naive to think every college ref couldn't be persuaded by someone to do something. My biggest issue is the Pandora's box with Replay...in all sports. You can't have some things be reviewable and some things not. If you are watching a replay, and see an infraction or violation, then you have to call it. If you think Alstork did a soccer flop when he supposedly got elbowed then T him up (or whatever the punishment is there)....you can't say "OH, I breathed to had through my whistle, I didn't mean to blow it." And if they didn't call the goaltend on the infamous 5 or 6 point possession in the first place, why did they even go to the monitor? Foul on Finke, debatable, but I've seen that foul called before even though I think it's stupid, but there was no one else it could have even been on...why are you going to the monitor..if you go to the monitor, its a goaltend.
Now I'm rambling....all in all...I expected more from Alstork, I think Smith is deferring too much, and when Finke is in we have to play zone, he's just too slow to do the hedge and recover, and he's going to get fouls called on him 25 feet from the hoop which hurt us. Oh, and our zone offense isn't great, but I think that's because they had a giant in the middle who was pretty good.
Going further, I think it's giving them a pass to call their calls "questionable". There were calls last night made that aren't even in the rulebook what so ever. That's just uncalled for.
If I’m a wake forest fan I’m not feeling good after this game. A coach in his fourth year needing to be given the game by the referees against a first year coach teaching a new system to an underclassmen led team doesn’t bode well for their future, for this season or the next six.
Underwood will fix the zone offense (I have a feeling we’ll be seeing it a lot more zone after this game) and our young guys will improve through game time. We lost the battle but we’ll win the war. Would love to be matched up with them again in the future to remind them why Ayo chose Illinois
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Underwood will fix the zone offense (I have a feeling we’ll be seeing it a lot more zone after this game) and our young guys will improve through game time. We lost the battle but we’ll win the war. Would love to be matched up with them again in the future to remind them why Ayo chose Illinois
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Several reasons the Illini lost, yet the personal foul disparity is glaring at 14 to 31. We did great shooting our free throws, 13/14 for 92%, to theirs, 24/31 for 77.4%. So, if we get a few more fouls called against them, make 8 more free throws, foul less ourselves, we win by at least 1 point. Interesting stats:
http://www.fightingillini.com/documents/2017/11/28/GM7_Illinois_Wake_Forest_Box.pdf
http://www.fightingillini.com/documents/2017/11/28/GM7_Illinois_Wake_Forest_Box.pdf
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Ubermensch
BOOM! Feed my ego.
Watch it 6 more times. But stop by the eye doc first, friend.
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
Good on the players for not making excuses, but it was obvious from the post-game interviews that Finke was integral to our game plan to beat the zone. Once he got into early foul trouble, we were forced to cobble together something else on the fly. We had mixed results.
My thoughts too. I think too much is made over who starts. In BU's system everyone will see time. He played more minutes than everyone but Black.
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
Officials sucked. We all know it. But I'm more concerned with how we performed in the last minute or so of the game. Looked like no one wanted the ball. And after Smith took the hard lesson of taking the ball to the basket in College, he responded with a bad looking floater wanting nothing to do with a legit college big again. Growing pains of a young teams first test on the road. Hope they learned from it and are ready for the cats.
I'm not sure how much this has been discussed since I haven't read the entire thread, but the three referees who did the game were three of the most active ACC officials. One of them (Tim Nestor) lives in the Winston-Salem area and was hired by the former head of ACC officiating, John Clougherty, who used to teach at Wake Forest.
This kind of thing has happened before. In 2015, the ACC head of officials wrote an email admitting that the officiating crew made a mistake during the last minute of a game at Wake Forest that helped them beat NC State. Apparently, one of the Wake players should have been called for a flagrant one foul, but wasn't.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/article10257179.html
Last January, Duke won a game at Wake Forest on a last-second three-pointer after officials called ten more fouls (30-20) against the Blue Devils and allowed the Deacons to stay in the game with the help of 32 free throws. Tim Nestor was one of the officials working that game as well.
http://kwese.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=400915407
Here's a game from a while back when Maryland was not at all pleased by the officiating at Wake Forest in a game that broke their 7-game winning streak against the Deamon Deacons:
http://www.umterps.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=29700&ATCLID=207291394
This kind of thing has happened before. In 2015, the ACC head of officials wrote an email admitting that the officiating crew made a mistake during the last minute of a game at Wake Forest that helped them beat NC State. Apparently, one of the Wake players should have been called for a flagrant one foul, but wasn't.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/article10257179.html
Last January, Duke won a game at Wake Forest on a last-second three-pointer after officials called ten more fouls (30-20) against the Blue Devils and allowed the Deacons to stay in the game with the help of 32 free throws. Tim Nestor was one of the officials working that game as well.
http://kwese.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=400915407
Here's a game from a while back when Maryland was not at all pleased by the officiating at Wake Forest in a game that broke their 7-game winning streak against the Deamon Deacons:
http://www.umterps.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=29700&ATCLID=207291394
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Future Walk-On
- Peoria, IL
46 games last night and we had the 2nd highest foul differential.
The most was Ball State vs. Oakland City (DII).
Every team with a double digit foul differential won by atleast 20. :tsk: Except WF....
