foby
- Bonnaroo Land
Maybe contrary to what some have posted in the past, he has earned his keep and was a worthwhile addition to the staff.
Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (August 2018)
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Maybe contrary to what some have posted in the past, he has earned his keep and was a worthwhile addition to the staff.
IIRC, Chin was added to help us recruit Chicago. Antigua was added for his overall recruiting ability (namely bigs, and also to coach them up). Walker was retained for central illinois/st louis recruiting.
As far as I'm concerned, Chin is the only one who has delivered. Walker "lost" Tilmon to Mizzou, maybe got us MS, but likely misses on all other recruits in his area.
Chin's the only safe one. BU has loyalty ties to none of them. Not saying I necessarily want to see the other two gone if they produce weak results this cycle, but the conversation certainly needs to happen. I'd rather BU bring in a system guy.
As far as I'm concerned, Chin is the only one who has delivered. Walker "lost" Tilmon to Mizzou, maybe got us MS, but likely misses on all other recruits in his area.
Chin's the only safe one. BU has loyalty ties to none of them. Not saying I necessarily want to see the other two gone if they produce weak results this cycle, but the conversation certainly needs to happen. I'd rather BU bring in a system guy.
And we can't discount Antigua's work with the bigs either. Black's evolution last year was very impressive.
Whatever you want to say about Chin, he delivered on the thing he was most directly brought here to do.
If you're opening one of the three chairs, that decision is an obvious one IMO, barring a Liddell commitment that probably isn't coming.
Whatever you want to say about Chin, he delivered on the thing he was most directly brought here to do.
If you're opening one of the three chairs, that decision is an obvious one IMO, barring a Liddell commitment that probably isn't coming.
This is misleading. LSU had Ben Simmons' godfather on staff, Alabama has Avery Johnson as coach, Mizz hired FAMILY MEMBERS to get the players, and I think we all know Bruce Pearl's ahem...sketchy history. and USC is located in LOS ANGELES.
In our position we do not have any of these advantages so we still have to win to build our brand back up.
Those two are not like the others.
Also, Ben Simmons and Michael Porter Jr are not remotely the same thing as a general category of "5 star and 4 star recruits".
Deleted member 79908
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I appreciate you giving me MVP. I know my stuff!
I dunno, ... I've been hoping to see more Globetrotter stuff from Antigua. You know ... the half-court hook shots, lopsided ball ... stuff like that.
That's part of OA's pitch: "Listen EJ, at the very least I can make sure you're playing for the Globetrotters after all your college and pro stuff shakes out. The pay is decent and you don't have to work nearly as hard. Free ice cream on Sundays after events!"
Ayo is not "marginally" better than JCL/Leron. Granted his ranking fell by 8 spots in the final RSCI (due to injury senior year? Not sure tbh) but he was chosen as one of the 12 best U18 players in the country in a field littered with 5* and top talent. He's a stud, plain and simple..much more than JCL, Leron, or Mark Smith were in high school.
I agree it is hard to give Underwood an advantage at this point. Definitely different situations, Groce's first year the class was empty, Underwood managed to hang onto Frazier/Damonte & then bring in 3 late recruits Smith/Ebo/Matic (who are all gone, but I guess we still give a participation trophy for recruiting them), then because of roster turnover we do it all over again this year.
How about we all agree that Underwood has out spring recruited Groce? or out spring dumpster dive recruited to use a S & C trademarked term
As it turned out, not getting Evans was a stroke of luck. But it's not like anyone knew that at the time, including Underwood who pursued him aggressively.
I still firmly believe that if OSU had gone in another direction and we had brought in Mike Boynton and Evans in addition to Jamall Walker (as was clearly BU's initial plan) along with not losing Stephen Gentry as DOBO to Gonzaga, in a hypothetical world where Evans doesn't get taken down by the FBI thing, we would have been a MUCH better basketball team last year. A serious NCAA tournament contender, possibly even better than that.
Where the hypothetical goes from there, who knows. We might not land Ayo in that world. Maybe we aren't better off. Maybe there is still tons of roster turnover. But I am absolutely convinced we see a totally different 2017-18 team with a staff full of quality Underwoodball vets.
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I think JCL benefited from the school of thought that an plus plus 3pt shooter could learn to handle the ball and drive a bit.
He ended up being a two trick pony. Catch and shoot 3 or one move and shoot 3. Considering his ranking and 3pt ability, his defense, ball handling, and inside scoring was some of the starkest contrasting abilities I've ever seen. He just didn't develop anything else.
Ayo is probably the exact opposite of JCL. He has all those points I mentioned above locked down. He will impact the team immediately, maybe not from a score sheet perspective, but he will elevate the other 4 guys on the floor. JCL brought them down. That being said, having JCL on last years team would've brought us exactly what we needed. He would've thrived IMO.
He ended up being a two trick pony. Catch and shoot 3 or one move and shoot 3. Considering his ranking and 3pt ability, his defense, ball handling, and inside scoring was some of the starkest contrasting abilities I've ever seen. He just didn't develop anything else.
Ayo is probably the exact opposite of JCL. He has all those points I mentioned above locked down. He will impact the team immediately, maybe not from a score sheet perspective, but he will elevate the other 4 guys on the floor. JCL brought them down. That being said, having JCL on last years team would've brought us exactly what we needed. He would've thrived IMO.
JCL was supposed to be very good, Leron Black was supposed to be very good, throw in Nunn & Hill ( 60 & 62) in rivals who were both really good...yes Ayo is higher, but marginally is fair. I think the better argument is Black & JCL were year 3 & 4 for Groce; where Ayo is year 2, so compare to Hill/Nunn class. My 2 cents, the jury is still out.
Joel Goodson
- ties will be resolved
Coming in in March, I find it really difficult to characterize Underwood's first class as "year 1." Slap a big, fat asterisk on it.
2 out of 3 is correct. 1 gets my vote for space cadet
sacraig
- The desert
In fairness, JCL's ranking was based on his high school performance, and therefore mostly on potential. Anyone who isn't a one-and-done is essentially ranked based on potential, IMO. JCL may have been a much better, less one-dimensional player under a staff who were better at teaching/developing players, but at this point, we will never know.
You can't go back in time, but I am definitely interested to see how he does at DePaul. I wish him the best and suspect he might reappear as a better player.
The post-Illini careers of Myke Henry and Kendrick Nunn speak volumes, IMO. You could even include Mike LaTulip in that to a certain extent. Ahmad Starks and Aaron Cosby were also much better players in their pre-Illini iterations.
Foggy Notion
- San Francisco
Most newly hired coaches start their jobs at around the same time of year.
Joel Goodson
- ties will be resolved
Yes, but that doesn't negate my point.
I love using Cinderella outliers models of success. I'm not even convinced Loyola makes the tournament if they're in the Big Ten.
I generally feel we would be better off if we didn't think of basketball recruiting in terms of "classes" personally. Even more so now in a world where transfers are so common.
sacraig
- The desert
All good points. The level of dysfunction among many of those teammates, the lack of discipline, and the and the lack of real improvement after about sophomore year for many of those players are all good illustrations of the loose grip that staff had on many aspects of coaching 18 to 23-year-olds.
I'm just not sure it's useful to do these comparative analyses between coaching regimes and their recruiting when we're only ~1.5 years into the present one. Recruiting doesn't take place in a vacuum. Ex: Groce's early classes came when our program was down, but not post-Groce era down as Underwood has faced. At the same time, we have absolutely no idea how this year's class will perform, and basing any conclusion on a sample size of 1 is frivolous.
I agree with your point that we should be more willing to critique coaches early in their tenure rather than waiting 3-4 years to pass judgement, but I think that logic applies more to those parts of the job that we can readily see (like in-game coaching) rather than recruiting, for which we rely on tea leaves and barbershop chatter as much as any real intel.
Deleted member 29907
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Ah, but Cinderella (#Aschenputtel) was rated as a mid 2 star by 247 back in the day - she worked her tail off (and with the help of a mystical shoe company - #FGMother) she proved to the doubters she was a stone cold 5 star by her sophomore year.
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