2019-20 Coaching Discussion/Carousel

[ChiefGritty]

Agreed, the waters are not easy to navigate. The concern here for me, as much as cost, is time. The days of screening multiple candidates, whitting that list down to a couple finalists, interviewing and vetting them thoroughly before you make a decision and present an offer are dead. These deals are getting finalized in record speed now. Going down the rabbit hole with a candidate you don't have a realistic chance of catching by the tail is not appealing to me. You can call that aiming low if you like, I call it managing expectations. And with the latter, we can still hire a a very good coach/staff.

Whitman stepped up to the plate and socked it out of the park on Lovie and Underwood, in terms of closing the deal on a high-dollar, high-status hire quickly and quietly.

I trust his eye for the marketplace. I wouldn't have thought either of his hires were possible going in. The place my trust has dwindled a bit, and where I hope he has done some learning and re-thinking, is in his vision and leadership and management of the programs.

 

[FiveStar]

Let's just say there is room for some real spicy political takes as to why there is such a deviation in price compared to other states. But our facility is darned near identical to Clemson's. Also darned near identical to Iowa's which was also $55 million.

It's right in line with what everyone is doing, and done thoughtfully and in high quality. That's a Corolla. Great car, reliable, holds its value.

Not in a state as clean cut and smooth around the edges as Illinois how dare you

 

[FiveStar]

Whitman stepped up to the plate and socked it out of the park on Lovie and Underwood, in terms of closing the deal on a high-dollar, high-status hire quickly and quietly.

I trust his eye for the marketplace. I wouldn't have thought either of his hires were possible going in. The place my trust has dwindled a bit, and where I hope he has done some learning and re-thinking, is in his vision and leadership and management of the programs.

Thinking in Underwood terms, as opposed to Lovie, how many of our potential candidates are both underpaid AND under-appreciated (by their athletic department) and would be willing to make the move almost as an FU to their current employer?

 

[ChiefGritty]

Thinking in Underwood terms, as opposed to Lovie, how many of our potential candidates are both underpaid AND under-appreciated (by their athletic department) and would be willing to make the move almost as an FU to their current employer?

Maybe the answer is none. But there was one in spring 2017 and Whitman found him.

He found the most obviously qualified resume you could reasonably imagine taking either job, and engaged unprecedented financial resources to make it happen in both cases.

I'd expect the same thing again. For us to pay competitively to hire someone who has obvious qualifications for the job.

I hate mixing non-revenue with revenue, but I think it's a bit instructive for Whitman's thinking. Chris Tamas was the lead assistant for the best team in the country. Nancy Fahey was literally in the Hall of Fame. These are simple elevator pitches. It doesn't have to be rocket science.

*spends the next three months making it rocket science at absurd length*

 

[Twangers]

Whitman stepped up to the plate and socked it out of the park on Lovie and Underwood, in terms of closing the deal on a high-dollar, high-status hire quickly and quietly.

I trust his eye for the marketplace. I wouldn't have thought either of his hires were possible going in. The place my trust has dwindled a bit, and where I hope he has done some learning and re-thinking, is in his vision and leadership and management of the programs.

In name perhaps but in terms of situation, Lovie is exactly the type of person I said we would hire then. I felt it was a clear arbitrage type hire. I feel that’s the situation we’re in today. Mike Novell is not an arbitrage type candidate.

 

[ChiefGritty]

In name perhaps but in terms of situation, Lovie is exactly the type of person I said we would hire then. I felt it was a clear arbitrage type hire.

Because the Bucs were paying his buyout? Maybe so, but we certainly handed out big time dollars over the term of the contract.

Famous last words, but Whitman seems less of a flea market hustler than his mentor. Doesn't mean you don't take a value opportunity when it presents itself, but you don't go in trying to maximize your coach per dollar. The best coach you can afford is the best value in the market, always.

 

[Twangers]

Because the Bucs were paying his buyout? Maybe so, but we certainly handed out big time dollars over the term of the contract.

Famous last words, but Whitman seems less of a flea market hustler than his mentor. Doesn't mean you don't take a value opportunity when it presents itself, but you don't go in trying to maximize your coach per dollar. The best coach you can afford is the best value in the market, always.

Because he’d been a HC for 11 seasons, did not want to have to go back to coordinating defenses and didn’t have a path to another HC position. He was the type of candidate that, on paper, had a resume that exceeded normal expectations for a program like ours but circumstances made him a viable option.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

I really think a lot of people are (severely) underestimating how fun it would be to run the triple option.

Imagine a team coming to Champaign in mid-November knowing they’re going to have to stop that. We would be the game on everyone’s schedule they felt queasy about.

Illinois football being *about* something. What a concept.

 

[ChiefGritty]

Imagine a team coming to Champaign in mid-November knowing they’re going to have to stop that. We would be the game on everyone’s schedule they felt queasy about.

Yes. Which is exactly what I like about UnderwoodBall, btw. Even as we've sucked, teams that are better than us are dreading that game on the schedule, because win or lose it's not going to be business as usual, they're going to be forced out of their comfort zone.

I watched a lot of Paul Johnson's Georgia Tech. Over and over again, good teams would just quit against them. They weren't prepared for it, they couldn't figure it out, just get this game over with and move on. Not unlike Minnesota against us in hoops this year. It's a beautiful thing.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

Yes. Which is exactly what I like about UnderwoodBall, btw. Even as we've sucked, teams that are better than us are dreading that game on the schedule, because win or lose it's not going to be business as usual, they're going to be forced out of their comfort zone.

Yes! I was hesitant to cite Underwoodball because the returns have been, uh....incomplete, but it’s similar.

PLEASE do not read this to mean that I’m making any kind of comparisons to D1 football, but I distinctly remember prepping against the triple option team in our conference in my HS days. It was *terrible*. The games were miserable too (they beat us with well-timed passing plays. Every. Time.)

 

[ChiefGritty]

Yes! I was hesitant to cite Underwoodball because the returns have been, uh....incomplete, but it’s similar.

PLEASE do not read this to mean that I’m making any kind of comparisons to D1 football, but I distinctly remember prepping against the triple option team in our conference in my HS days. It was *terrible*. The games were miserable too (they beat us with well-timed passing plays. Every. Time.)

It would not surprise me if we look back in 100 years and see the latter part of the 20th century as this weird little aberration period in which football coaches seemingly forgot the immense power of making defenses unsure where the ball is.

 

[Illinifan533]

My only concern with Monken and the triple option is the offensive personnel the team has. You have some nice talent in the receiving corp, including an NFL prospect in Smalling, and you'll have Luke Ford becoming eligible and paired with Barker, forming what should be the most formidable TE duo in the conference. If Monken comes in and decides to implement the pass a bit more, then great, we have a coach that can adjust his scheme to fit the players. Otherwise, feels like a bit of a waste.

 

[ChiefGritty]

My only concern with Monken and the triple option is the offensive personnel the team has. You have some nice talent in the receiving corp, including an NFL prospect in Smalling, and you'll have Luke Ford becoming eligible and paired with Barker, forming what should be the most formidable TE duo in the conference. If Monken comes in and decides to implement the pass a bit more, then great, we have a coach that can adjust his scheme to fit the players. Otherwise, feels like a bit of a waste.

Go back and watch some film of Demaryius Thomas who Johnson inherited at Ga. Tech. A rangy, go-up-and-get-it athlete at that position who is also a willing and physical blocker is perfect, and Thomas went in the first round playing in that system.

Smalling would be good, Bhebhe would be perfect, Ford would kinda have to go one direction or the other.

But this is ignoring the elephant in the room. God put Isaiah Williams on this earth to be this system's QB. He would make absolute clowns of people.

 

[Twangers]

My only concern with Monken and the triple option is the offensive personnel the team has. You have some nice talent in the receiving corp, including an NFL prospect in Smalling, and you'll have Luke Ford becoming eligible and paired with Barker, forming what should be the most formidable TE duo in the conference. If Monken comes in and decides to implement the pass a bit more, then great, we have a coach that can adjust his scheme to fit the players. Otherwise, feels like a bit of a waste.

It’s definitely a concern to discuss a HC that runs an offense which only throws the ball 8% of the time for a program with a roster made up almost entirely of OL and receiving talent. That’s a fair point.

I do feel the recruiting concerns are way overblown, however. CJ Dixon will run from it like the plague and I have to believe Frenchie rethinks things as well but recruiting backs, OL and defensive players (DC dependent) will be fine, perhaps far better. Johnson recruited pretty well at GT. Average player ranking sat around 84.5-85, numerous 4* kids, put lots of them into the league. I don’t see the worry as it pertains to recruiting.

 

[Illinifan533]

Go back and watch some film of Demaryius Thomas who Johnson inherited at Ga. Tech. A rangy, go-up-and-get-it athlete at that position who is also a willing and physical blocker is perfect, and Thomas went in the first round playing in that system.

Smalling would be good, Bhebhe would be perfect, Ford would kinda have to go one direction or the other.

But this is ignoring the elephant in the room. God put Isaiah Williams on this earth to be this system's QB. He would make absolute clowns of people.

Thanks for the Thomas tidbit. Found out that in 2009 he was able to put 1154 receiving yards and 8 TD's while leading the nation in yards per catch. If Monken's like Johnson in terms of adapting, then I'm completely sold.

 

[SouthFLILLINI]

A lot of the coaches who have dominated at that level have been soaked up by FBS in recent years.

Bohl to Wyoming then Klieman to KSU from NDSU. Beau Baldwin from Eastern Washington to Cal as OC. Mike Houston from James Madison to East Carolina. Willie Fritz from Sam Houston State to Georgia Southern then Tulane. Matt Viator from McNeese State to Louisiana-Monroe.

A lot of what's left are older guys like Mark Farley at Northern Iowa and John Stiegelmeier from SDSU who have been there for a million years.

Fritz and maybe Bohl could be viable candidates for us, potentially. Both very good coaches.

Fritz is 59 and Bohl is 61. I like them both but, age is a factor.

 

[Twangers]

Thanks for the Thomas tidbit. Should be noted that in 2009 he was able to put 1154 receiving yards and 8 TD's while leading the nation in yards per catch. If Monken's like Johnson, then I'm completely sold.

Thomas is the only kid on that team that caught more than 10 balls. 10. That’s not a typo.

High end HS WRs in the Lincoln Riley age aren’t signing on for that. How much that bothers me, I haven’t decided. We have high end WRs now and we might be looking at a 3-4 win season, so....

 

[Deleted member 29907]

I really think a lot of people are (severely) underestimating how fun it would be to run the triple option.

Imagine a team coming to Champaign in mid-November knowing they’re going to have to stop that. We would be the game on everyone’s schedule they felt queasy about.

Illinois football being *about* something. What a concept.

Fun for who? From the USA Today article (as a data point):
'Last winter, in searching for Rich Rodriguez’s replacement, Arizona considered Niumatalolo. But Khalil Tate, the Wildcats’ star dual-threat quarterback, tweeted that he “didn’t come to Arizona to run the” triple option – never mind that it might have been a perfect fit for his skill set.'

 

[Twangers]

Fritz is 59 and Bohl is 61. I like them both but, age is a factor.

That’s why I like Bohl specifically, perfect arbitrage candidate. He’s immensely qualified to take a job with this set of unique circumstances, immensely credentialed and highly plugged into the recruiting scenes in Texas and the Midwest (And, surprisingly, California) yet because his age scares people, he’s not a potential Power 5 name. We actually have a chance to hire him should we consider it.

 

[Twangers]

Fun for who? From the USA Today article (as a data point):
'Last winter, in searching for Rich Rodriguez’s replacement, Arizona considered Niumatalolo. But Khalil Tate, the Wildcats’ star dual-threat quarterback, tweeted that he “didn’t come to Arizona to run the” triple option – never mind that it might have been a perfect fit for his skill set.'

Using 1 player as example of worldwide vitriol towards this offensive scheme is not viable.

 

[ChiefGritty]

Thanks for the Thomas tidbit. Should be noted that in 2009 he was able to put 1154 receiving yards and 8 TD's while leading the nation in yards per catch. If Monken's like Johnson, then I'm completely sold.

Monken was the RB/Special Teams coach on that staff. It's the same offense.

Fun fact about that Thomas season where he had a totally typical superstar WR statline: the next leading Tech reciever had 8 catches. The whole rest of the team had 32 catches to Thomas' 46. Whenever they threw it, you knew where it was going, but it was already too late.

Passing is rare and very different-looking in that system, but it's not nonexistent.

I will say in fairness that Monken has been a non-passer even among option teams. They've been dead last in attempts every season he was there, and only attempted 65 passes in 13 games in 2017 (they went 10-3!). I can't find old FCS pass attempts stats, not sure if this carries back to Georgia Southern. I do remember they beat Florida in the Swamp without completing a pass.

Fun for who? From the USA Today article (as a data point):
'Last winter, in searching for Rich Rodriguez’s replacement, Arizona considered Niumatalolo. But Khalil Tate, the Wildcats’ star dual-threat quarterback, tweeted that he “didn’t come to Arizona to run the” triple option – never mind that it might have been a perfect fit for his skill set.'

Assessing the willingness of the roster to make this transition would have to be part of the process. If it means everyone would transfer and you're starting as an 0-12 expansion team, you go in a different direction. But hopefully not everyone has Tate's lack of imagination. He'd be destroying everyone playing for Niumatalolo, and closer to finding the only skillset that's ever going to make him NFL money.

 

[FeelYourPaign]

I'm now hopelessly behind in this thread.
It's probably in here somewhere, but how much is Lovie's buyout after this season?

 

[pvaughn8]

Because he’d been a HC for 11 seasons, did not want to have to go back to coordinating defenses and didn’t have a path to another HC position. He was the type of candidate that, on paper, had a resume that exceeded normal expectations for a program like ours but circumstances made him a viable option.

I think this is the best explanation I've seen for why Illinois took on the Lovie experiment. Well said

 

[Deleted member 29907]

Using 1 player as example of worldwide vitriol towards this offensive scheme is not viable.

Of course not, but one can extrapolate re; the type of talent you are going to attract - and they do in the article. Its probably not what most of the higher talent skilled O players are looking to run to. My point is not that it's not viable (not exactly a lofty goal), rather that its boring to watch and you are not likely to get the talent we built a very expensive center for. And, we could very likely lose most of our skilled O players for the chance at new offense that may possibly work. We can all salivate on how great a particular player might fit the offense, but if they didn't come here to play that offense and don't like it - it really doesn't matter does it.

Just an observation, but the triple option theme appears geared toward consistent 5-6 win seasons. If that is what the collective Illini nation is pumped up for - well, seems sad.

Our problem is our defense clearly and obviously. If we had a 2nd or 3rd year QB running our offense we would be completely fine - but we've had the unfortunate circumstance of not being stable in that position over many years. 99% of the discussion on change should be geared towards fixing our defensive.

 

[Deleted member 29907]

Monken was the RB/Special Teams coach on that staff. It's the same offense.

Fun fact about that Thomas season where he had a totally typical superstar WR statline: the next leading Tech reciever had 8 catches. The whole rest of the team had 32 catches to Thomas' 46. Whenever they threw it, you knew where it was going, but it was already too late.

Passing is rare and very different-looking in that system, but it's not nonexistent.

I will say in fairness that Monken has been a non-passer even among option teams. They've been dead last in attempts every season he was there, and only attempted 65 passes in 13 games in 2017 (they went 10-3!). I can't find old FCS pass attempts stats, not sure if this carries back to Georgia Southern. I do remember they beat Florida in the Swamp without completing a pass.



Assessing the willingness of the roster to make this transition would have to be part of the process. If it means everyone would transfer and you're starting as an 0-12 expansion team, you go in a different direction. But hopefully not everyone has Tate's lack of imagination. He'd be destroying everyone playing for Niumatalolo, and closer to finding the only skillset that's ever going to make him NFL money.

Conjecture of course. But regardless, kids like flashy things. Its like the uniforms discussion - we can talk all we'd like about what we would like and what we think would be good for the team to wear, but if its not their style - doesn't matter.

Somehow, the triple option discussion has become a sure winning combination. It can be called viable, but folks are talking like its a guaranteed success which of course is folly. We could just as easy keep our 3 win seasons with the triple option.