2019-20 Coaching Discussion/Carousel

Deleted member 649710 · Sep 23, 2019

bombayIllini said:
The roof is caving in. Hope JW is sleeping well.

Nah. The talent on the roster is better than four years ago, and if a new coach is brought in most will stay. The Football Performance Center is built. The player abuse scandal is receding into the past. The foundation is definitely better than it was when JW was hired.

illini62707 · Sep 23, 2019

Josh Whitman, inherited one big mess! All kinds of leadership problems were going on with top administrators. The previous AD i think made 2 really bad hires, which set both programs back even further. If facilities are important for football then Illinois was one of the bottom feeders of the B10 in that area, as well. No special recruiting ties anywhere.
I also look at this as Smith's 3rd year football wise even though he's been head coach 4. I'm not a avid backer of Smith, Underwood or Whitman. And I clearly see the concerns everybody else has and agree with many. But i also think it's going to take more time to build this program than most seem to. One thing i would do; fire the DC and give the new one full reign next year.

Butkus68 · Sep 23, 2019

Per Michigan beat writer, we’re part of the cure for what ills plague a storied program:

Niyo: Harbaugh’s Michigan team is a mess, and that’s shocking at this point

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...eam-mess-and-thats-shocking-point/2410918001/

Orange Line to Blue Line · Sep 23, 2019

illini62707 said:
Josh Whitman, inherited one big mess! All kinds of leadership problems were going on with top administrators. The previous AD i think made 2 really bad hires, which set both programs back even further. If facilities are important for football then Illinois was one of the bottom feeders of the B10 in that area, as well. No special recruiting ties anywhere.
I also look at this as Smith's 3rd year football wise even though he's been head coach 4. I'm not a avid backer of Smith, Underwood or Whitman. And I clearly see the concerns everybody else has and agree with many. But i also think it's going to take more time to build this program than most seem to. One thing i would do; fire the DC and give the new one full reign next year.

What was preventing Lovie from hiring a new Defensive Coordinator last year. And here is a question that I havent heard been brought up yet. IF (its a big IF) Lovie hires a new defensive coordinator, what will happen with the defensive position coaches. Will Lovie force the new Defensive coordinator keep the position coaches (his son in particular). These will be telling times. I think a clean slate on defense is the only chance Lovie keeps his job moving forward.

3DegreeIllini · Sep 23, 2019

illini62707 said:
Josh Whitman, inherited one big mess! All kinds of leadership problems were going on with top administrators. The previous AD i think made 2 really bad hires, which set both programs back even further. If facilities are important for football then Illinois was one of the bottom feeders of the B10 in that area, as well. No special recruiting ties anywhere.
I also look at this as Smith's 3rd year football wise even though he's been head coach 4. I'm not a avid backer of Smith, Underwood or Whitman. And I clearly see the concerns everybody else has and agree with many. But i also think it's going to take more time to build this program than most seem to. One thing i would do; fire the DC and give the new one full reign next year.

Now that I've come out of my Saturday funk, this seems to make the most sense. But our only likely option is rolling the dice on a "hot" up and comer. We've done that--Beckman, Groce, and even Lovie. I don't think we can afford to keep rolling the dice every three years. Michigan can afford a RichRod situation. We're looking at 3 of those in a row.

Keeping Lovie on as a figure head (Moms love him!) and changing the D from the ground up would be a result I could live with (assuming we get to 5 wins). Many have suggested Lovie is too stubborn to do that--if that's the case, then I'd feel okay cutting ties.

ChiefGritty · Sep 23, 2019

3DegreeIllini said:
Now that I've come out of my Saturday funk, this seems to make the most sense. But our only likely option is rolling the dice on a "hot" up and comer. We've done that--Beckman, Groce, and even Lovie. I don't think we can afford to keep rolling the dice every three years. Michigan can afford a RichRod situation. We're looking at 3 of those in a row.

So let's hit a few points of that

- Paying Lovie Smith $4 million a season to be a checked-out CEO with little strategic input and mediocre recruiting ability is a senseless waste of money. How can we "afford" that, when we could hire someone else who could provide more value for less money?

- Lovie was a hot up and comer? Not sure what you even mean by that.

- It's year 4 for Lovie. Ron Zook was here for 7 years. Ron Turner was here for 8. Illinois has never had a quick hook, ever. Maybe being quick to fire for poor performance is a bad idea, maybe it's a good one, I'm genuinely unsure myself, but it is a strategy that has *never* been tried at Illinois, undeniable objective fact, period.

- Since people seem to be impressed with what's going on with Herm Edwards at Arizona State, worth pointing out that they have fired 5 head coaches in a row, none of whom had a losing record at the school. None of them have held a D1 head coaching job since. It's a popular claim that this should destroy the program and make it a toxic waste site no coach would touch with a 10 foot pole, but that claim lacks evidence.

ChiefGritty · Sep 23, 2019

TheOlafRules said:
The foundation is definitely better than it was when JW was hired.

It really is, and now it's time to recommit to doing what JW was attempting to do in hiring Lovie, really solidifying and professionalizing the coaching staff, giving our players a high level of instruction.

And that's what makes me dubious of these claims that JW is going to stay with Lovie no matter what. It would be one thing if what we were seeing is disciplined mediocrity with a really high quality staff, losing games by playing a behind-the-times system and not having talented enough kids of the team. Then you can say let's keep pushing with the new facility and try and incorporate some new ideas atop a sound foundation. You could see someone with JW's mindset being stubborn and doubling down on his vision.

But you can't claim that's the situation with a straight face. It's obvious our kids don't know what to do out there a lot of the time, especially on the defense that Lovie has personal ownership of. And our staff is weak and getting weaker every year. JW's not blind, he sees this, and it's the opposite of what he intended this era to be.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

Orange Line to Blue Line said:
What was preventing Lovie from hiring a new Defensive Coordinator last year. And here is a question that I havent heard been brought up yet. IF (its a big IF) Lovie hires a new defensive coordinator, what will happen with the defensive position coaches. Will Lovie force the new Defensive coordinator keep the position coaches (his son in particular). These will be telling times. I think a clean slate on defense is the only chance Lovie keeps his job moving forward.

Fairly simple, the job wasn't all that attractive to outside candidates. If you look around and fail to see anyone that you feel can do the job as well as you can, whether that analysis is correct or not, you decide to "do it yourself". Happens everyday in most every walk of life.

Orange Line to Blue Line · Sep 23, 2019

Twangers said:
Fairly simple, the job wasn't all that attractive to outside candidates. If you look around and fail to see anyone that you feel can do the job as well as you can, whether that analysis is correct or not, you decide to "do it yourself". Happens everyday in most every walk of life.

But our Offensive Coordinator Position was attractive. I think that is a terrible excuse. We have the budget and we are a Power 5 school. When will we stop making excuses. Hopefully we are saving money on our Dline Coach and Linebackers coach.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

Orange Line to Blue Line said:
But our Offensive Coordinator Position was attractive. I think that is a terrible excuse. We have the budget and we are a Power 5 school. When will we stop making excuses. Hopefully we are saving money on our Dline Coach and Linebackers coach.

No, no, no. Two entirely different things my friend. Those comparisons are completely invalid.

Lovie Smith has a long track record going back a decade of allowing his OCs full autonomy over the playcalling and overall offensive philosophy outside of specific in-game situations. Rod Smith (Who had just been fired) looked at this job and it's 500K (Average to mediocre by Power 5 standards) salary and said "This is perfect. I can continue to call plays in a Power 5 conference, make decent money and I won't have a HC breathing down my neck about why I called "X play". That is essentially the polar opposite of the DC situation.

Orange Line to Blue Line · Sep 23, 2019

Twangers said:
No, no, no. Two entirely different things my friend. Those comparisons are completely invalid.

Lovie Smith has a long track record going back a decade of allowing his OCs full autonomy over the playcalling and overall offensive philosophy outside of specific in-game situations. Rod Smith (Who had just been fired) looked at this job and it's 500K (Average to mediocre by Power 5 standards) salary and said "This is perfect. I can continue to call plays in a Power 5 conference, make decent money and I won't have a HC breathing down my neck about why I called "X play". That is essentially the polar opposite of the DC situation.

Rich Rod was fired from Arizona and from what I remember from the situation, I thought the news was planning on retaining both offensive coordinators. Also do you know that for a fact that Lovie gives full autonomy over the offense? Because judging by how much we LOVE playing field position and never going for it on 4th and short/medium, I would think differently.

Lovie is not being held accountable for how bad the defense has been. Anyone who thinks otherwise is part of the problem.

Ander1345 · Sep 23, 2019

I don't think there is a lack of people holding Lovie accountable, at least insofar as being critical of how poor his defenses have been.

It's up to the powers that be to make a decision. There hasn't been an ounce of improvement in 4 years, and people have been saying it since last year.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

Orange Line to Blue Line said:
Rich Rod was fired from Arizona and from what I remember from the situation, I thought the news was planning on retaining both offensive coordinators. Also do you know that for a fact that Lovie gives full autonomy over the offense? Because judging by how much we LOVE playing field position and never going for it on 4th and short/medium, I would think differently.

Lovie is not being held accountable for how bad the defense has been. Anyone who thinks otherwise is part of the problem.

My comment was clear, he has full autonomy (And he does) outside of specific in-game situations that are generally left to the HC. Coordinators don't make decisions on whether or not the team should punt the football.

That last sentence is pointless. If you see anyone making that argument, please let us all know.

Orange Line to Blue Line · Sep 23, 2019

Twangers said:
My comment was clear, he has full autonomy (And he does) outside of specific in-game situations that are generally left to the HC. Coordinators don't make decisions on whether or not the team should punt the football.

That last sentence is pointless. If you see anyone making that argument, please let us all know.

I guess the point I am trying to make then is the root of the defense problem is Lovie. Whether its as defensive coordinator or preventing us from making a good hire, which i think we can all agree on that we have the resources to make a good hire. All roads lead back to him.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

Orange Line to Blue Line said:
I guess the point I am trying to make then is the root of the defense problem is Lovie. Whether its as defensive coordinator or preventing us from making a good hire, which i think we can all agree on that we have the resources to make a good hire. All roads lead back to him.

I think, across the board, we unanimously agree. I was only here to address your original comment/question, what was preventing us from hiring a high quality DC? That answer, again, is simple. It's not an attractive job.

Orange Line to Blue Line · Sep 23, 2019

Twangers said:
I think, across the board, we unanimously agree. I was only here to address your original comment/question, what was preventing us from hiring a high quality DC? That answer, again, is simple. It's not an attractive job.

I kind of still disagree with that. Does Lovie really have that big of an ego? Or did he not want to hire one in the first place? Its depressing that my brain cant answer that question.

illini0440 · Sep 23, 2019

Twangers said:
I think, across the board, we unanimously agree. I was only here to address your original comment/question, what was preventing us from hiring a high quality DC? That answer, again, is simple. It's not an attractive job.

$500-$700k a year is attractive to college football coaches. The problem here is that a search never happened. Lovie was going to call the defense the entire time.

618Illini618 · Sep 23, 2019

I spoke with a former board of trustee member who still stays in frequent contact with many current members at the Nebraska game briefly and I can share a few takeaways

1. Lovie's seat is getting warmer but not "hot" yet
2. Jeff Monken is high on many lists as a potential replacement, since many believe he is affordable
3. Mike Norvell would likely be option A except most believe he would command too high of a price

lopey986 · Sep 23, 2019

TheOlafRules said:
Lovie was sold as a defense-minded coach. If the defense is historically bad in years 3 and 4 of his tutelage, how can one possibly think keeping him around for year 5 makes a lick of difference? The scheme isn’t working, the technique is poor and the execution is awful. Does not everyone see this? That’s mostly due to poor coaching.

I think Lovie was more sold as a program caretaker than anything else. Bring in respectable coaches, respectable kids, keep the program out of off the field problems that we endured under Beckman. Stop being an embarrassment of a program. He's done that. Similar to what John Fox did in Chicago. Now it's time to hand over the reigns to a coach who wants to WIN.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

Orange Line to Blue Line said:
I kind of still disagree with that. Does Lovie really have that big of an ego? Or did he not want to hire one in the first place? Its depressing that my brain cant answer that question.

I don't know his state of mind but in the context of this argument, it's irrelevant. What I know is that through every step of his career he has hired a DC and defensive staff that teaches the philosophy that he wants taught. He wants a man under scheme. Trying to find a decent candidate to come make average pay at a school with below average defensive talent where he has to teach and call someone else's predetermined defensive scheme is not attractive. This position, without doubt, is unattractive for a higher end DC.

Ander1345 · Sep 23, 2019

John Fox was brought in as an experienced coach to pair with a still really young GM as well.

It wasn't worth it. Illinois should take risks, it's not as scientific as everyone makes it out to be.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

illini0440 said:
$500-$700k a year is attractive to college football coaches. The problem here is that a search never happened. Lovie was going to call the defense the entire time.

500K (Rod's starting salary) is an average to below average salary for a Power 5 Coordinator.

ChiefGritty · Sep 23, 2019

618Illini618 said:
I spoke with a former board of trustee member who still stays in frequent contact with many current members at the Nebraska game briefly and I can share a few takeaways

1. Lovie's seat is getting warmer but not "hot" yet
2. Jeff Monken is high on many lists as a potential replacement, since many believe he is affordable
3. Mike Norvell would likely be option A except most believe he would command too high of a price

They can say whatever they want, if BoT people are already bandying about names of new coaches, the wheels are already turning. And those are two darned good names to be at the top of any list. I would agree that Norvell would probably cost big bucks, and very well might say no regardless.

What may appeal to him about getting out of the AAC is he could have more stability on his staff. This is his 4th OC in 4 years there, Chip Long left for Notre Dame, Darrell Dickey left for Texas A&M, Kenny Dillingham left for Auburn, and now he's got former Indiana OC Kevin Johns. An eye for assistant talent, certainly.

ILL_INI · Sep 23, 2019

Twangers said:
I don't know his state of mind but in the context of this argument, it's irrelevant. What I know is that through every step of his career he has hired a DC and defensive staff that teaches the philosophy that he wants taught. He wants a man under scheme. Trying to find a decent candidate to come make average pay at a school with below average defensive talent where he has to teach and call someone else's predetermined defensive scheme is not attractive. This position, without doubt, is unattractive for a higher end DC.

Exactly. Lovie made it clear at the time that he believes his system works and he would be looking for someone who would run his defense. I guess he found that person without having to conduct any interviews.

Twangers · Sep 23, 2019

ChiefGritty said:
They can say whatever they want, if BoT people are already bandying about names of new coaches, the wheels are already turning. And those are two darned good names to be at the top of any list. I would agree that Norvell would probably cost big bucks, and very well might say no regardless.

What may appeal to him about getting out of the AAC is he could have more stability on his staff. This is his 4th OC in 4 years there, Chip Long left for Notre Dame, Darrell Dickey left for Texas A&M, Kenny Dillingham left for Auburn, and now he's got former Indiana OC Kevin Johns. An eye for assistant talent, certainly.

We're likely going to have to compete for Norvell (Hence the concern over cost). I don't think that's attractive to me at this time.

2019-20 Coaching Discussion/Carousel

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