Missouri 63, Illinois 56 POSTGAME

Status
Not open for further replies.
#301      
illinitiger
WARDFORTHREE said:
I am really old, but like to believe I have gained some knowledge watching so many years of basketball. Ever fan will have 1,2 or even 3 players who don't play much that they think is the answer. It is the reason there is so much hope at the beginning of the season, the unknown. So people saying Alan and TJ need minutes because they are better than everyone else, pump the breaks. They can be nice pieces, but they aren't number one recruits that would change the game completely.

Remember this isn't year 6 for BU. Sure, it can be frustrating at times, but he has shown a willingness to adapt. You cannot change your offense in the middle of a game. They are playing a completely different defense because he was willing to change his his philosophies to something that may works better. But again, the players are still learning the defense, it takes time. This is year 3. We are better than year 1. We are better than year 2. As much as we want to think it, Illinois basketball is not the draw it once was for players...why? Because we had a long stretch of John Groce and Bruce Weber losing. So you work your tail off, recruit some guys who can play, and slowly get this thing going again. We almost beat a top 5 team and we did beat another top 5 team. That would have been a fantastic season under Groce...that one win. So let BU lose a few games to gather some knowledge about what works/doesn't work.


Sorry, I am old and I didn't mean to write so much. I hope you take these words as an honest assessment. US fans can rush to a judgement, but I promise that BU has forgot more about basketball than most of us know...Go Illini.
Click to expand...
Thanks for calming some of us dow a little on BU (me for 1). I hope you are right on BU figuring it out. He has adapted which is credible...I just wish he could adapt to in-game situations better.

This team will no doubt give us highs and lows. Margin of error to make tournament is tight now and B10 has alot of teams that can compete with us.
 
#302      
NotThatPierre
skyIdub said:
I truly think BU had his coaching reigns shortened by JW after the Mark Smith season. He's very obviously softer and different now. I think, maybe, he's a coach in the same mold (style not necessarily method) as Izzo and Ratboy, but without the resume to forgive the red faced screaming hard !!! moments.

He's trying to adapt to this new era of CBB....and I agree he's struggling.

I mentioned it earlier this year and this last game showed a few moments where you have to wonder if our Alpha Dog issue between Ayo and Trent is holding us back. We are terrible moving without the ball.

We show few efforts to pass out of the post entry to an open shooter. I understand that we have a perceived advantage in the post, but there needs to be some variety and that is squarely on the coaches. Every time Kofi or Giorgi get the ball in the post they are committed to their post moves and I'm mostly sure that is at the direction of the coaches. When it's working we shoot 60% and dominate the glass, when it's not our offense is completely stagnant.
The obvious result is we have skilled shooters that aren't getting any rhythm and they turn to the weave to get movement.

The minute you see Kofi and Giorgi passing right out of their double and triple team to open AG, TF and Ayo is the minute our offense turns the corner IMO.
Click to expand...
Great post.

O too have wondered about the Mark smith effect
 
#303      
illini62707
ChocolateThunder said:
I am not quite sure what is meant when it is said that a coach "allows lack of fundamentals." The player knows the fundamentals, most have been playing for 10 years. The coach knows the fundamentals. I assume passing is a fundamental. If the players do not pass the ball, move without the ball, that is on the coach? Granted the weave is an 'Underblunder." But there is such as thing as "collaborative chemistry" which a team has to develop on its own, independent of coaching. I do not see that yet with the Illini.
Click to expand...
When you have players going through the motions on their cuts that is on, BU. Not blocking out is on, BU. Not running your man into the screen is on, BU. If a coach wants these bb fundamentals executed in a game he has to make sure the players carry it out. And i think they've done a good job boxing out on the boards by and large this year. My post was in reference to another post which said the players just go thru the motions on their cuts, which i agree with.
 
#304      
TCTORNADO
NotThatPierre said:
Great post.

O too have wondered about the Mark smith effect
Click to expand...

We certainly know the effects in STL as evidenced by the Liddell recruitment. Also, it has to be very difficult to recruit when your program is labeled as having a "hostile environment."
 
#306      
skyIdub
NotThatPierre said:
Great post.

O too have wondered about the Mark smith effect
Click to expand...

Thanks! I think the same applies to our guards driving to the lane with only one goal...to get their own shot. Too much me ball and not enough we ball.

BU just doesn't have the P5 resume to get away with leaning hard on players. Especially players that feel they are entitled to playing time. Perhaps that is why he leans towards more minutes for Damonte over Tev and AG. Damonte gives him no reason to lean on him with most of his minutes and probably during practice.
Every coach loves kids that don't make their job harder. There is little doubt that offensively we should be better with those guys on the wings waiting for a kick out from the post or a driving Ayo, Trent, or Dre. So many times during the Miznoz game we watched Kofi and Giorgi double and triple teamed, force up shots in the post while TF and others watched.

Whether it's because of match ups, stubbornness, or the attitude of Tev and AG, it's mostly lost on us without being inside the locker room.

I hope they can find their way to a good lineup rotation because we absolutely need Damonte's minutes, as proven during the Maryland and scUM games....and we absolutely need AG and Tev minutes, as proven during the Misery.
 
#308      
illini62707
I would just like to see Jones get more minutes. His sample size is so small nobody is sure what he can do. I think he could add some scoring and make some 3's. I also don't think he's a very good defender.
Having Ayo, TF, GB, AND Kofi on the floor together should not be a problem. Go thru your progressions on offense and look for the best available shot. Having these guys on the floor at the same time should be a huge plus. I would like to see TF with the ball in his hands more , though.
I think BU has done a good job recruiting especially considering the state of the program when he came in. His record in 1-2 point games is bad especially considering how they lost a couple of the games ( not putting Kofi back at MD this year ) and i don't think much of the offense they run. But what would really help this team on that end is if they could make some dang 3's.
 
#309      
illinitiger
skyIdub said:
Thanks! I think the same applies to our guards driving to the lane with only one goal...to get their own shot. Too much me ball and not enough we ball.

BU just doesn't have the P5 resume to get away with leaning hard on players. Especially players that feel they are entitled to playing time. Perhaps that is why he leans towards more minutes for Damonte over Tev and AG. Damonte gives him no reason to lean on him with most of his minutes and probably during practice.
Every coach loves kids that don't make their job harder. There is little doubt that offensively we should be better with those guys on the wings waiting for a kick out from the post or a driving Ayo, Trent, or Dre. So many times during the Miznoz game we watched Kofi and Giorgi double and triple teamed, force up shots in the post while TF and others watched.

Whether it's because of match ups, stubbornness, or the attitude of Tev and AG, it's mostly lost on us without being inside the locker room.

I hope they can find their way to a good lineup rotation because we absolutely need Damonte's minutes, as proven during the Maryland and scUM games....and we absolutely need AG and Tev minutes, as proven during the Misery.
Click to expand...
There was one really nice sequence on Saturday with a guard driving, kicking out to Giorgi and giorgi with a quick entry for a Kofi layup. That was one of our 4 assists I believe. :(
 
#310      
warhawk
Same old with this squad, where to even begin. Damonte - Minutes should be limited, to posters talking about his "grading" lol, he is an absolute non-threat on offense, he should only be in game to provide a rest to other players when we are on defense or in extreme foul trouble. Not the reason we lost but its so apparent to anyone that knows anything about the game.

Our recruiting of players with intangible skills has been abysmal. Basketball IQ and mental toughness are almost non-existent on our squad, its been that way for years. This team is the most athletic we have had in some time and that doesn't seem to translate to wins. Case in point, Luke Kasubke, I watched him own Ayo's team in the Highland tournament. Granted Ayo was injured (not injured enough to prevent him from cheap shotting Luke in the face and drawing a technical). Adam Miller was a stud in that game. I digress, we need a player like him. Good decision making and great shooter. I see big things from him at K State. Seems like the type of player that goes to Iowa or Wisky and drops 25 on us.

Kofi appears to be an exception to these recruiting issues, he's very mature for a freshman.

Ayo. Talented, but not as talented as we thought. Average shooting skills, handles, and decision making. Good size and decent penetration skills. His lack of improvement and development is evident and Adam Miller isn't coming here. His arrival hurt Trent's game and the staff has done nothing to counteract this (that is noticeable).

Hero ball. A combination of poor chemistry (not recruiting intangibles) and no real offensive scheme. For having two new coaches since then, I see so much of later years "Weber" offense with no actual ball screens. I honestly don't understand what our weave hopes to accomplish besides making things easy on opposing defense.

Three point shot attempts. This one is just a personal pet peeve of mine. We shoot too many threes. I don't have the statistics to validate this assertion, but we lose so much momentum and potential rebounds shooting transition threes. I can understand (but not appreciate) a last second shot clock three, since we have no offense, but transitions 3's are momentum killers. We do not have good shooters and have not recruited any.

Giorgi/Kofi. Did our staff not realize this summer that it would be challenge to utilize these players simultaneously? Did practice sessions not reveal this?

Penetrating to directly under/behind the basket and passing back out to perimeter. We do this constantly. Penetrate to behind the backboard and throw a pass (while teetering out of bounds) past 2-3 defenders. Turnover waiting to happen.

Learning the defense. Previous posters have made excuses these guys are just learning the new defense and need more time. Defense is not complicated, see ball and man, defending passing lanes/trap or don't, play zone or a match up, switch or don't, and block out. These kids have been playing defense for years. The scheme is different than last year, but it's not complicated. I don't put this on the coaches because its too simple to coach. We have players that are not athletic enough to stay in front of some opposing players and too low of basketball IQ to follow simple directions. We need to occasionally slip back into last years defense to exert pressure, we have the bigs to defend the back door that we were previously lacking.

Kool Aid. Previous posters are also complaining about our fan base declaring were a final four team after beating Michigan and then complaining were done after "one" loss. The reality, the upper ranks of the big ten are not nearly as good as their rank would suggest. There is a lot of parity in the league and away games will as usual be brutal. This loss was a huge blow to morale and was lost in an uninspired manner. As others have correctly pointed out, its not necessarily that we lost, its how we lost. This Missouri team is bad.

Brad Underwood. This Missouri loss is his worst loss at Illinois. This team has about as much talent as were going to get at Illinois until we become more relevant. He has to win with it, or we will never climb back into a top 25 program. If we give the coaches the benefit of the doubt, that theie schemes are effective and the players are being properly instructed how to execute them, we are in big trouble.
 
#311      
NotThatPierre
TCTORNADO said:
We certainly know the effects in STL as evidenced by the Liddell recruitment. Also, it has to be very difficult to recruit when your program is labeled as having a "hostile environment."
Click to expand...
Actually, that's not my point. The recruiting has been fine by the numbers since that.

My concern is that he's dialed back his coaching style to the point where he's not successful.
 
#312      
Halloweenie
I am not high on BU but we have another 19 games to evaluate. Another losing season or barely 500 will not play well.
 
#313      
illini80
NotThatPierre said:
Actually, that's not my point. The recruiting has been fine by the numbers since that.

My concern is that he's dialed back his coaching style to the point where he's not successful.
Click to expand...
Here’s what I found really odd and I’m not saying we got hosed by the refs. Kofi got mauled inside and couldn’t adjust to the physical play (Both ways). After one particularly egregious play I would have expected the coach to be up yelling for the refs to call something, but BU was leaning back in his chair. I believe they called it very loose both ways, but when your team is getting beat up and not responding, I thought it was time for the coach to get T’d up fighting for his guys.
 
#315      
Illiniguy90
Anyone know how to get a replay of this game? I hate myself and want to re-watch it but I'm struggling to find a place that offers the replay.
 
#318      
PlayAZ
Hopingfor500 said:
That's not an opinion, that's fact.
Click to expand...

I would really like to see Trent be the primary offense starter, with Ayo and Griffin/Jones (if it applies) be the moving wings. Giorgi coming off the bench with the other wings that are applicable and some scoring abilities with Feliz.

Trent PG
Ayo wing/guard
Griffin wing/guard
Willams/Jones
Kofi

2nd run of players with Ayo
Feliz
Ayo
Jones
Nichols
Giorgi
 
#319      
Steelyunk
alexander58 said:
Number 1. Giorgi will look better in some games more than others. Missouri put a long athletic forward on him. That’s a tough match up.
Number 2. Missouri figured out some things that we already knew. Giorgi won’t shoot 3s from the high post. Feliz is the key to Illinois’ ability to score when the offense isn’t working.
Number 3. Every time the Illini are running a one possession play, Ayo has the ball.
It really couldn’t be easier to defend.
Number 4. If you have quick athletic guards , you can stop Illinois from starting their offense 35 feet from the basket.
Click to expand...
I don’t disagree with anything after #1. How does any of that mean Underwood compares favorably to coach K?
 
#320      
zuma
I was at the game on Saturday. I am disappointed, but if we can win the games @Rutgers, @ Penn St, @Iowa, a tourney bid is possible. I realize that is a huge if. But the talent is there. Free Trent Frazier! Let him shoot some heat checks. That's his game -- he needs to be a constant threat, especially when he is out there with DW.

Also, here's something that is depressing:

BIG TEN records under...

Self + Weber: 124-78
Groce+ Underwood: 49-81

Let that sink in.

Merry Christmas!!
 
#321      
PlayAZ
zuma said:
BIG TEN records under...

Self + Weber: 124-78...Weber was 89-64 during 9 years.
Groce+ Underwood: 49-81...Groce 37-53...BU-12-28
Click to expand...

This standard is why we cannot get top class' of recruits and not develop the ones we have...what 40% and 30% winning with last 8 years? We thought we were bad off with Weber at 67% winning...lol, be careful what we wish for?
 
#322      
CasualObserver05
Take out the Lindenwood game (doesn't count on the resume) and we're 7-4 right now. Obviously not where anyone wanted to be but it is what it is.

From here on out, if the magic number is 20, you have to take care of the home court and find 3 on the road (obviously for every one we drop at home we'll have to find another on the road.) Best bets I can see, @Wisky, @Rutgers, @NU, on any given night we can beat Iowa and Purdue (home or away).

None of the above takes into consideration hopefully a few more wins in the BIG tourney. While Mizzou gave us a lot to doubt, Maryland and Michigan gave us a lot to believe. Keep up hope, Go Illini, Merry Christmas!

For Fun: Joey Brackets think we've still got a case: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology
 
#324      
illini80
JFGsCoffeeMug said:
Appreciate the effort, but seeing us listed under "First Four Out" isn't making me feel any better about our loss. At all. :(
Click to expand...
Yep. Good news is we can play our way back into the dance. Bad news is we haven’t shown that is likely to happen at this point.
 
#325      
illini62707
Got to get all the home games and at least 2 away. Every loss at home will be another road win u gotta get
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back