Loyola Chicago 71, Illinois 58 Postgame

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#451      
I go back to the Oscar Robertson/Chet Walker MVC days.....some of the greatest basketball ever. My point was that Moser took over teams that were bad and built them up. Getting into the CBI was a step to the NCAA tourney. Strange that HInson wouldn't play those games. Illinois went into those tourneys in the past. Moser took a team to the Final 4 with Krutwig averaging about what Curbelo averaged this year. If you remember their Final 4 run, Krutwig was a young, slow, soft kid, couldn't jump much, who was a contributor, but not the star of that team. Moser's got this team doing it again.

I posted several weeks ago when the Krutwig to Illinois stuff was out there that we would take him in a New York minute and he would be a star in Champaign. Guys on this board were scoffing at that because he didn't play against "Big 10 caliber" teams. As someone who has followed the MVC, I would think that you would agree that the MVC has a lot of guys that would start in the Big 10. FWIW, Bradley has a kid-Elijah Childs-who is transferring and would start at UI. He was the player we needed this year. A tough 6'7" rebounder who scores. Loyola wins a couple more and they will have been to 2 Final 4's since UI. And it's pretty obvious they don't have the talent that UI has, yet they won by 13. What's that tell you.
I agree with you for the most part. I guess part of me still remembers the dumpster fire he had at Illinois State and the early years at Loyola. Maybe he has found the right fit at Loyola, but I can't see him being a fit at most power conference schools. Just my opinion, he could prove me wrong.

If I remember, SIU turning down those postseason trips was all financial as opposed to anything else.
 
#452      

Deleted member 747903

D
Guest
Still too early for me to replay yesterday's fiasco but, i kept thinking why kofi is playing 3-5 feet off of krutwig at the top of the elbow...i guess the thought to the staff was to allow kofi to lag back down in the paint to protect the rim...But hindsight i think more d pressure by Kofi on krutwig MIGHT have stunted that pick and roll play they ran ad nausem......Many times the ballhandler drove around the screen and had an open lane to the rim with no weakside help by the Illini......Wow, it really hurts to type or even think about that game....hurts like hell still....hurts to the bone bad......

Because krutwig can blow by Kofi and make him more prone to fouls. Krutwig is just a bad matchup for a big like Kofi.

Someone like EJ Liddell would be a slightly better matchup. Maybe Trevion Williams too
 
#453      
I go back to the Oscar Robertson/Chet Walker MVC days.....some of the greatest basketball ever. My point was that Moser took over teams that were bad and built them up. Getting into the CBI was a step to the NCAA tourney. Strange that HInson wouldn't play those games. Illinois went into those tourneys in the past. Moser took a team to the Final 4 with Krutwig averaging about what Curbelo averaged this year. If you remember their Final 4 run, Krutwig was a young, slow, soft kid, couldn't jump much, who was a contributor, but not the star of that team. Moser's got this team doing it again.

I posted several weeks ago when the Krutwig to Illinois stuff was out there that we would take him in a New York minute and he would be a star in Champaign. Guys on this board were scoffing at that because he didn't play against "Big 10 caliber" teams. As someone who has followed the MVC, I would think that you would agree that the MVC has a lot of guys that would start in the Big 10. FWIW, Bradley has a kid-Elijah Childs-who is transferring and would start at UI. He was the player we needed this year. A tough 6'7" rebounder who scores. Loyola wins a couple more and they will have been to 2 Final 4's since UI. And it's pretty obvious they don't have the talent that UI has, yet they won by 13. What's that tell you.
You are way understating Krutwig's contribution to that team. He was absolutely the glue to that team; without him they don't sniff the FF
 
#455      
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
 
#456      
Exactly what adjustments would folks suggest could have been made ?

Several things I can think of that should have been tried (sorry, my prior post could not be edited any long and I didn't mean to reply when it was submitted):

- Loyola plays an aggressive style of ball denial where they are "on the line, up the line" which makes it harder to penetrate and throw a pass from the top of the key to the wing, in essence shrinking the floor. As long as the defender at the top of the key is able to not allow a straight line drive, you can typically funnel the penetrator into the wing defender. The wing defender is also generally in a position to help out to the three point line as long as there is no straight line drive. To counter this, when the wing defender comes to help, there should be all sorts of space behind him to cut backdoor instead of the wing on offense standing at the three point line. The best play may have been Curbelo penetrating to Ayo's side of the floor and forcing Ayo's defender to help, while Ayo cuts backdoor for a layup or dunk

- Loyola was very physical with their on ball defense. Driving right right into them (think shoulder to shoulder) and forcing the ref to call a block or charge would have been a good move to try to loosen things up (assuming they called blocks which if we are smart, we should be able to draw blocks). A quick first step should be able to achieve this.

- Loyola was trapping Ayo and Curbelo after every high ball screen. We had very poor success and best case was usually just passing out of the trap. Stop screening. Ayo and Curbelo are gifted enough penetrators to beat their man off the dribble. They can then get in the lane and finish or pass to the open man/lob to Kofi. It was clear after the first 5-8 minutes of the game that the high ball screen was Loyola's top priority to stop and they were selling out on it.

- Run the offense that we ran the first two seasons with the big at the high post. Put Kofi at the high post and let players cut off of him. This is much harder to trap than the high ball screen and a much easier pass to hit Kofi on the roll when the guard is already at the elbow.

- Reverse the ball a couple times and set up a screen on the wing, instead of the top of the key. With this, Kofi needs to be quick to pop out of the post while the ball is being reversed so that Krutwig is hopefully not able to trap the ball handler. Or just have him at the elbow and quickly reverse the ball from right to left, so that Krutwig should be in the lane when the ball is on the left side of the court (help defense), and then Kofi goes to set a screen for Ayo's (ideally) man while Ayo is receiving the pass on the right wing.

- Go big with Giorgi and Kofi. We had trouble getting the ball into Kofi because of Loyola's ball pressure. Giorgi would have been able to see over the top of Kofi and deliver the passes (think high-low like in Self's offense). Krutwig had no answer for Kofi down low, we just didn't do a good job getting him the ball. It also allows us to really attack the offensive glass with Kofi and Giorgi. On defense, run zone so that Giorgi isn't having to defend the perimeter.

- Put Ayo in the pinch post or mid post on offense and let him turn and face. This puts him with a live dribble (triple threat position) and one dribble away from the basket. He can head fake and drive, shoot a jumper, dribble and jumper, etc. It's hard to double team here because he should be able to see the whole floor and not have such a long pass as when they were doubling him out on top of the floor

Set up some plays to get the hot hand (Miller) open. Pin downs, curls, anything to get him an open look and see if he can keep it going from outside.

- Defensively, if you don't want to go to a zone, then go under all of the screens or switch all screens. This is contrary to what we have done all year, where we trail the player that is receiving the screen. The reason we always trail rather than going under is because it makes it much harder for the offensive player to get off a clean shot from three, and Kofi would be standing in the paint to prevent a layup. So, the offense is left with either a contested three, a contested layup, or a somewhat less contested mid to long two point jumper. Defensively, allowing a mid range jumper is a win and if that's what you allow on defense every possession, with some level of contest, you are in good shape to win the game. This worked well for us in B1G play, however the offense ran by B1G teams generally involves the center setting these screens on the perimeter. In Loyola's case, they have the wing set a screen for the player in the corner, who curls around. Krutwig then has the ball for the handoff/pass to the guy curling, and he is receiving the ball generally around the foul line, with a head of steam and our man behind him. Kofi is in no-mans land at this point because the player has a full head of steam and Krutwig has options of handing it off, faking it and driving himself, etc. Kofi had a hard time contesting the shots at the rim because of this, and when he was able to, they would lob it to Krutwig for a very un-athletic alley oop (but it worked). This action was killing us and we should have figured out how to stop it, rather than trailing the cutter all game and thinking something was going to change. Either go zone, switch this action, or go under all screens.
 
#457      
Props out to Lucas Williamson. Ayo's former teammate played the whole game like he had something to prove and Ayo had no answer.

Too bad there was no raucous Illini crowd to shame the refs into making some calls early on and to spur the Illini to play better in the 2nd half.

Lucas Williamson said his dream school was Illinois.
 
#458      

DICKnaggie

Champaign
Several things I can think of that should have been tried (sorry, my prior post could not be edited any long and I didn't mean to reply when it was submitted):

- Loyola plays an aggressive style of ball denial where they are "on the line, up the line"
I kept wondering during the game why BU, who used pass denial defense his first couple of years here and before, didn't immediately counter or better yet, have it put in from the get-go.
 
#459      
I kept wondering during the game why BU, who used pass denial defense his first couple of years here and before, didn't immediately counter or better yet, have it put in from the get-go.

Agree 100%, Loyola plays very similar ball denial to what BU played for 2 years and we got beat backdoor relentlessly. I watched some video breakdown of Loyola getting beat defensively, and it was a ton of backdoors. You would think that after seeing different plays used against us and watching some tape on Loyola, that they would figure out that they could get easy layups and dunks by taking advantage of Loyola's defensive style.
 
#460      

Cook

Richmond, VA
1. Stop running the high ball screen on offense. OSU almost came back to beat us in the BTT because they figured out it allowed them to double team Ayo at the top of the key and we had no answer to it. Loyola did this to us all game
2. Adjust our defense to what they were doing with their high ball screens. They were in essence setting a double screen with a guard and Krutwig on the perimeter and rubbed their ball handler by the screeners. The defender couldn't fight through both screens and with Kofi in essence playing a soft man-man vs Krutwig the ball handler was free to penetrate. When Kofi went to pick up the ball handler it left Krutwig with a mismatch. Either go zone or get more aggressive with the guy defending Krutwig
3. Kofi has to realize when he is being double teamed and to know when and where to kick the ball out, quickly. You put a guy in each corner and at the top of the key and have someone else slash into the lane - the defense can't cover all 4 if Kofi is double teamed. If Kofi can learn to do this he will have a long career in the NBA; if he can't he will need to learn a foreign language
Excellent recommendations and realistic options they could have done. I'll throw in two more options on offense that would've been super easy: 1. Put Kofi and Giorgi both in and try some high low, also giving Kofi a big to pass to out of the double team and making it harder for them to double team down close around the basket. 2. Since they wanted to double team and trap so heavily- run some clear outs for Ayo and Belo with all 4 other guys out of the way on the opposite side of the floor and see what Ayo/Belo can do one on one going to the hoop.
 
#461      
You don't just force your opponent's guards into 10 turnovers without excellent coaching and defensive strategy. Someone scouted us extremely well to spot our weakness. Same goes for double/triple teaming of Kofi, knowing he can't/won't pass out of it.
 
#462      
I'm over the traditional 'big man' when it comes to tourney play. But so is the NBA. Iowa, Illinois, Purdue, etc, etc are eliminated. It works well in the regular season grind.

I'm also over the small guard approach for tourney runs.

I covet a stable of 6'4" - 6'8" athletic combo/wing studs. See Baylor, Arkansas, Maryland, Houston, UCLA, -type rosters. Granted a few unicorn exceptions could be added to the stable (any top 30 big man or lightning quick, athletic small guard (Curbelo-type)). But the base of the roster stays the same. Then switch, switch, switch on D.

I'm uneducated to high-level ball, but with today's youth/players in love with the 3-pointer regardless of size, and with the AAU culture, I'd move on from the plodding big men and micro guards.

Goode, Melendez, Bass..... Keep 'em comin'!!!
 
#463      

Cook

Richmond, VA
Agree 100%, Loyola plays very similar ball denial to what BU played for 2 years and we got beat backdoor relentlessly. I watched some video breakdown of Loyola getting beat defensively, and it was a ton of backdoors. You would think that after seeing different plays used against us and watching some tape on Loyola, that they would figure out that they could get easy layups and dunks by taking advantage of Loyola's defensive style.
Excellent posts. They're actually making me even more angry about this loss and the utter failure to switch anything up on either offense or defense.
 
#464      
Agree 100%, Loyola plays very similar ball denial to what BU played for 2 years and we got beat backdoor relentlessly. I watched some video breakdown of Loyola getting beat defensively, and it was a ton of backdoors. You would think that after seeing different plays used against us and watching some tape on Loyola, that they would figure out that they could get easy layups and dunks by taking advantage of Loyola's defensive style.
We got beat backdoor relentlessly, both literally and figuratively.

Loyola seemed laser-focused in their preparation and execution. We seemed ill-prepared for what Loyola predictably threw at us, and kind of lackadaisical in our execution, both offensively and defensively. I had the sense that, at some point, we could just turn up the intensity and get back into the game on our superior athleticism alone, but it never happened. How could we have been so intense in the BTT, and demonstrate such lackluster preparation and execution during the NCAAT?

Watching that game (at a brewery near Madison with half-interested, pregaming Badger fans) was like a nightmare.
 
#466      

BBIQ

Texas
Several things I can think of that should have been tried (sorry, my prior post could not be edited any long and I didn't mean to reply when it was submitted):

- Loyola plays an aggressive style of ball denial where they are "on the line, up the line" which makes it harder to penetrate and throw a pass from the top of the key to the wing, in essence shrinking the floor. As long as the defender at the top of the key is able to not allow a straight line drive, you can typically funnel the penetrator into the wing defender. The wing defender is also generally in a position to help out to the three point line as long as there is no straight line drive. To counter this, when the wing defender comes to help, there should be all sorts of space behind him to cut backdoor instead of the wing on offense standing at the three point line. The best play may have been Curbelo penetrating to Ayo's side of the floor and forcing Ayo's defender to help, while Ayo cuts backdoor for a layup or dunk

- Loyola was very physical with their on ball defense. Driving right right into them (think shoulder to shoulder) and forcing the ref to call a block or charge would have been a good move to try to loosen things up (assuming they called blocks which if we are smart, we should be able to draw blocks). A quick first step should be able to achieve this.

- Loyola was trapping Ayo and Curbelo after every high ball screen. We had very poor success and best case was usually just passing out of the trap. Stop screening. Ayo and Curbelo are gifted enough penetrators to beat their man off the dribble. They can then get in the lane and finish or pass to the open man/lob to Kofi. It was clear after the first 5-8 minutes of the game that the high ball screen was Loyola's top priority to stop and they were selling out on it.

- Run the offense that we ran the first two seasons with the big at the high post. Put Kofi at the high post and let players cut off of him. This is much harder to trap than the high ball screen and a much easier pass to hit Kofi on the roll when the guard is already at the elbow.

- Reverse the ball a couple times and set up a screen on the wing, instead of the top of the key. With this, Kofi needs to be quick to pop out of the post while the ball is being reversed so that Krutwig is hopefully not able to trap the ball handler. Or just have him at the elbow and quickly reverse the ball from right to left, so that Krutwig should be in the lane when the ball is on the left side of the court (help defense), and then Kofi goes to set a screen for Ayo's (ideally) man while Ayo is receiving the pass on the right wing.

- Go big with Giorgi and Kofi. We had trouble getting the ball into Kofi because of Loyola's ball pressure. Giorgi would have been able to see over the top of Kofi and deliver the passes (think high-low like in Self's offense). Krutwig had no answer for Kofi down low, we just didn't do a good job getting him the ball. It also allows us to really attack the offensive glass with Kofi and Giorgi. On defense, run zone so that Giorgi isn't having to defend the perimeter.

- Put Ayo in the pinch post or mid post on offense and let him turn and face. This puts him with a live dribble (triple threat position) and one dribble away from the basket. He can head fake and drive, shoot a jumper, dribble and jumper, etc. It's hard to double team here because he should be able to see the whole floor and not have such a long pass as when they were doubling him out on top of the floor

Set up some plays to get the hot hand (Miller) open. Pin downs, curls, anything to get him an open look and see if he can keep it going from outside.

- Defensively, if you don't want to go to a zone, then go under all of the screens or switch all screens. This is contrary to what we have done all year, where we trail the player that is receiving the screen. The reason we always trail rather than going under is because it makes it much harder for the offensive player to get off a clean shot from three, and Kofi would be standing in the paint to prevent a layup. So, the offense is left with either a contested three, a contested layup, or a somewhat less contested mid to long two point jumper. Defensively, allowing a mid range jumper is a win and if that's what you allow on defense every possession, with some level of contest, you are in good shape to win the game. This worked well for us in B1G play, however the offense ran by B1G teams generally involves the center setting these screens on the perimeter. In Loyola's case, they have the wing set a screen for the player in the corner, who curls around. Krutwig then has the ball for the handoff/pass to the guy curling, and he is receiving the ball generally around the foul line, with a head of steam and our man behind him. Kofi is in no-mans land at this point because the player has a full head of steam and Krutwig has options of handing it off, faking it and driving himself, etc. Kofi had a hard time contesting the shots at the rim because of this, and when he was able to, they would lob it to Krutwig for a very un-athletic alley oop (but it worked). This action was killing us and we should have figured out how to stop it, rather than trailing the cutter all game and thinking something was going to change. Either go zone, switch this action, or go under all screens.
A lot of that sounds good but I think its very hard in a game like that to decide we are going to do stuff we haven't done all year and maybe haven't even practiced. You run the risk of getting blown out of the building and its not like we were down 20. So they made adjustments but within the confines of "what they do". You can't have a team for instance run a 2-3 zone for the first time all year. If we did that they probably would have ended up with all kinds of open looks from 3. i'm not trying to be dismissive of all that you said, its just that asking players to execute something they normally don't do and maybe haven't practiced much or at all in the biggest game of the season just isn't realstic in my opinion.
 
#468      
#469      
Well yet another racist has popped up coming at Kofi
We love you here Kofi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pay no attention to the idiot who made the nasty comment. He is alone, you are surrounded by friends!
 
#470      
A lot of that sounds good but I think its very hard in a game like that to decide we are going to do stuff we haven't done all year and maybe haven't even practiced. You run the risk of getting blown out of the building and its not like we were down 20. So they made adjustments but within the confines of "what they do". You can't have a team for instance run a 2-3 zone for the first time all year. If we did that they probably would have ended up with all kinds of open looks from 3. i'm not trying to be dismissive of all that you said, its just that asking players to execute something they normally don't do and maybe haven't practiced much or at all in the biggest game of the season just isn't realstic in my opinion.

The zone may be somewhat difficult, but these are also high major D1 basketball players. They've played zone at some point in their lives I'm sure. You can run it for 2-3 possessions and see what happens. You may very well be right that they might give up open shots because of confusion, lack of communication or familiarity, etc. At the very least, going under screens and switching is a pretty basic thing as well that they could have done if they didn't want to go to zone. One other thing on defense would have been a trapping/pressing defense to try to speed up the game.

The rest of it I'm not seeing what's so hard. Kofi and Giorgi have run the high-low before this season with pretty good success. The other things I mentioned are things that should come natural to the players. Backdoor cuts, forcing contact on drives with the defender so close, quick ball reversals, hand offs at the high post, pin downs or curls, putting Ayo in a closer proximity to the basket in pinch/mid post. These are all pretty standard things that these players should be able to absorb quickly during the 15 minutes at half and come out and be able to execute them fairly well, IMO.
 
#471      

BBIQ

Texas
The zone may be somewhat difficult, but these are also high major D1 basketball players. They've played zone at some point in their lives I'm sure. You can run it for 2-3 possessions and see what happens. You may very well be right that they might give up open shots because of confusion, lack of communication or familiarity, etc. At the very least, going under screens and switching is a pretty basic thing as well that they could have done if they didn't want to go to zone. One other thing on defense would have been a trapping/pressing defense to try to speed up the game.

The rest of it I'm not seeing what's so hard. Kofi and Giorgi have run the high-low before this season with pretty good success. The other things I mentioned are things that should come natural to the players. Backdoor cuts, forcing contact on drives with the defender so close, quick ball reversals, hand offs at the high post, pin downs or curls, putting Ayo in a closer proximity to the basket in pinch/mid post. These are all pretty standard things that these players should be able to absorb quickly during the 15 minutes at half and come out and be able to execute them fairly well, IMO.
I think the coaches know what these guys can be expected to execute against big time competition. I think they did try to run some high low with Grandison at one point and he turned the ball over trying to get it to Kofi over the defender who was fronting him. I'd have to re-watch the game I was so stunned by how it went a lot of its a blur. And you could very well be correct, you obliviously know the game. I guess I just give the coaches the benefit of the doubt and as a son of a coach I know there is a big difference between drawing up some X's and O's and actually being able to do it at the highest level in the biggest games.

A couple of the things I don't understand was why he took Miller out and left DaMonte in. As frustrating as Curbuelo can be with the over aggressiveness I imagine Underwood felt like he had to stick with him because he's our best chance to create some offense and provide energy. But besides a wide open look from behind the arc (which we could not get all game) Damonte just isn't an offensive threat. Or why Giorgi and/or Grandison didn't get more time when it was obvious they were killing us on the boards. What are your thoughts on that?
 
#472      
Well yet another racist has popped up coming at Kofi

I follow Kofi. He posted it on his story. The account was gone by the time I tried to search it just to see who that person might be.

Idiots in our country have been more empowered recently than at any other point on my lifetime.
 
#473      

BBIQ

Texas
I follow Kofi. He posted it on his story. The account was gone by the time I tried to search it just to see who that person might be.

Idiots in our country have been more empowered recently than at any other point on my lifetime.
Sickening.
 
#475      
A couple of the things I don't understand was why he took Miller out and left DaMonte in. As frustrating as Curbuelo can be with the over aggressiveness I imagine Underwood felt like he had to stick with him because he's our best chance to create some offense and provide energy. But besides a wide open look from behind the arc (which we could not get all game) Damonte just isn't an offensive threat. Or why Giorgi and/or Grandison didn't get more time when it was obvious they were killing us on the boards. What are your thoughts on that?

I agree completely on Miller not getting enough time yesterday, he was one of our best players. In a post yesterday I said that BU is very set in his ways on many things and slow to change (not adjusting scheme, and in this case, his closing lineup and rotations in general). He has been closing games with Ayo-Curbelo-Trent-Damonte-Kofi. Another example, you could argue that in the OSU game he should have stuck with Giorgi for a couple more minutes before leaving Kofi in to finish the game. Giorgi arguably won us the game with that few minute stretch when Kofi was taken out for foul trouble. Yesterday he should have kept Miller in and subbed Trent in for Damonte if he wanted Trent on the floor.

Grandison I think could have been effective screening for Ayo if we wanted to still try some high ball screen action because the other Loyola defenders (not Krutwig) are not as used to being the guy defending the screens so it may have helped if they screwed up the coverage as a result. Also, Grandison would be able to pop open for a pass on the perimeter and shoot/pass/dribble whereas Kofi is always trying to roll all the way to the basket and that pass is way too far when trapped way out on the perimeter. So it could have allowed us to run the pick and roll with Grandison and then have him create something if they double Ayo. This is basically what the Warriors do with Curry and Green... teams double Curry to force him to pass and Green gets the ball near the top of the key and drives to the hoop/passes/shoots based on what the defense gives up. Grandison seems at least somewhat capable of making that sort of decision.

I think you can only play Giorgi more (assuming you mean with Kofi) if you play zone. I don’t think you can have Giorgi out on the perimeter trying to chase around screens. Maybe you can scheme to where Giorgi is always guarding the guy running around the screen and then change onto the guy setting the screen, but that’s difficult if they run the action more than once on the possession. Maybe if Giorgi/Kofi are effective enough inside you force Loyola to play two bigs to try to stop then and that would probably mess up their offensive sets as well.
 
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