Coaching Carousel

[the juiceman cometh]

I disagree. We're caught up in a bidding war against a program with deeper pockets than our own. One of us is going to make Antigua the highest paid assistant coach in the history of the sport. And, if you're paying more than has ever been paid before, you're probably overpaying. I'm not sure that's the best example of capitalism.

It may also mean that relative to the value they bring, top recruiting assistant coaches are underpaid. At $1 million a year, OA would be making 1/9 of what Cal makes. Do you think his value as a recruiter, not to mention as a great big-man coach, is less than 1/9 Cal's value to UK? Probably not.

 

[Illwinsagain]

Yes, it is silly. It is silly that they would promise the keys to a person whose only track record as a head coach is as a failed one. If Cal goes, UK will make a run at someone like Mark Few or Brad Stevens or some other big name, successful head coach, not a successful assistant who fell on his face as a head coach.

I was thinking Billy Donovan. By then, the Bulls would likely have failed enough for him to look back at college hoops, unless he would rather be an analyst.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

RE: All this talk about Kentucky "clearly being a better job" and stuff ... well duh! That does NOT mean we have to lose a coach to them, however. Kentucky is a better job/destination than anywhere else in college basketball, but there is still a group of programs (think ones like Villanova, OSU, Arizona, Michigan, Syracuse, etc.) that would do literally everything it took to retain a coach who might be headed to Kentucky for two huge reasons:

1. Obviously that coach is a damn important component of your success if Kentucky wants him.
2. It sends a loud and clear message that even if Illinois isn't as good of a job as Kentucky today, we will never stop striving to be closer to them tomorrow than we were yesterday.

When RG let Self get away without putting up a fight like we seem to be right now, we WERE in that tier below the Blue Bloods as far as respect/reputation went, and we simply did not behave like it. We behaved like a private school with our only fans being our alumni and our "scope" being East Central Illinois. I know a lot of UI fans take great pride in their alumni status and the school's amazing academic reputation, but we can balance that with an OSU feel, too, where we are the de facto team of Illinoisans who never attended U of I (like me!) and are VERY serious about winning at sports. I continue to be more and more impressed with JW. Even if we lose OA to Kentucky, I am fairly confident we won't lose Chin, and as others have said this sends a message that Illinois views itself as a big boy program. And we should!

 

[TheGMan]

I disagree. We're caught up in a bidding war against a program with deeper pockets than our own. One of us is going to make Antigua the highest paid assistant coach in the history of the sport. And, if you're paying more than has ever been paid before, you're probably overpaying. I'm not sure that's the best example of capitalism.

I'm pretty sure that's the absolute perfect example of capitalism...

 

[Seagee]

I disagree. We're caught up in a bidding war against a program with deeper pockets than our own. One of us is going to make Antigua the highest paid assistant coach in the history of the sport. And, if you're paying more than has ever been paid before, you're probably overpaying. I'm not sure that's the best example of capitalism.

We were paying Self $1 million in 2003. His starting salary at Kansas was $1.1 million. I don't think anyone could claim now that we would have been overpaying to offer him substantially more than that.

His current contract guarantees him $5.41 million for life...

Sometimes being the first to pay more just means you recognize the value that others don't yet see.

I'm just grateful we have an alum and community member who is worth $8 Billion and already owns two professional sports teams––and an AD willing to shake those trees.

Self accepts KU coaching job

Kansas University will introduce Bill Self as the school’s eighth men’s basketball coach at a 1 p.m. Monday news conference. Several sources confirmed today that Self, 40, who led Illinois to a 78-24 record in three seasons, has accepted the job at Kansas. According to sources, Self’s contract...

m.kusports.com

 

[Cubfanbudman]

I disagree. We're caught up in a bidding war against a program with deeper pockets than our own. One of us is going to make Antigua the highest paid assistant coach in the history of the sport. And, if you're paying more than has ever been paid before, you're probably overpaying. I'm not sure that's the best example of capitalism.

I don't know if you're really overpaying though even if it's top of the market. If you gave him 4 years 1 million per, and got 4 years of top 30ish recruiting classes and 4 tournament appearances, wasn't that worth it? And obviously that's not all gonna be him, but 1-2 recruits can be the difference between a top 20-30 recruiting class and a not top 50 recruiting class.

 

[Boomauer]

OA has had stints at both UI and UK, so he knows both basketball situations inside and out. If money is similar I would imagine his choice would come down to where he enjoyed himself the most...the better fit for himself and his family.

 

[WaltJabsco]

It may also mean that relative to the value they bring, top recruiting assistant coaches are underpaid. At $1 million a year, OA would be making 1/9 of what Cal makes. Do you think his value as a recruiter, not to mention as a great big-man coach, is less than 1/9 Cal's value to UK? Probably not.

Time will tell. If other high D-1 programs immediately begin paying their top recruiters a million plus a year, it will signal a correction. If Antigua's salary remains an anomaly, it will show a couple of programs got out ahead of their skis. I'm guessing that there are a lot of nervous ADs right now, and a lot of excited agents.

 

[I11ini82]

Time will tell. If other high D-1 programs immediately begin paying their top recruiters a million plus a year, it will signal a correction. If Antigua's salary remains an anomaly, it will show a couple of programs got out ahead of their skis. I'm guessing that there are a lot of nervous ADs right now, and a lot of excited agents.

I agree time will tell, but salaries in sports very rarely go backwards.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

Yes, it is silly. It is silly that they would promise the keys to a person whose only track record as a head coach is as a failed one. If Cal goes, UK will make a run at someone like Mark Few or Brad Stevens or some other big name, successful head coach, not a successful assistant who fell on his face as a head coach.

I want to be clear that I think Kentucky is clearly the best job in the nation, and a coach with a competitive fire/dreams of a championship is likely to jump at the opportunity to coach there (almost) no matter where he is currently employed. However, just for discussion, I do have to wonder if the modern era has SOMEWHAT diluted the appeal of the "elite programs" to coaches. This likely affects those jobs just under the "UK Tier", but just as an example, imagine these two jobs, one with elite tradition and the other with "good" tradition:

Indiana: 5 National Titles, 8 Final Fours, 11 Elite Eights, 23 Sweet Sixteens, 39 NCAAT Appearances, .645 All-Time Winning Pctg., 560 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time
Texas: 0 National Titles, 3 Final Fours, 7 Elite Eights, 13 Sweet Sixteens, 35 NCAAT Appearances, .623 All-Time Winning Pctg., 269 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time

You won't find a ranking of all-time programs that puts IU outside of the top 7, and you likely also will not find one with Texas inside the top 20. However, I take that Texas job every day of the week. They have plenty of money, their instate talent is better than Indiana's, their conference has fewer historical powers to get past in ascending the ladder, their facilities are better and their fans won't turn on you during the middle of a rebuild because you haven't brought them back to the promised land yet. That's just one example, but I do kind of wonder if your "sleeping giant"-type programs have become a lot more attractive to prospective coaches now a days than some of the traditional powerhouses. Again, this likely doesn't apply to UK, UNC, Duke, UCLA or KU, who will always be elite jobs. But IU? Louisville? Syracuse? These jobs are all EXCEPTIONAL jobs, but they would have been no-brainers over Texas 30 years ago (IMO), but now I would honestly prefer Texas.

 

[thedrunkreferee]

We were paying Self $1 million in 2003. His starting salary at Kansas was $1.1 million. I don't think anyone could claim now that we would have been overpaying to offer him substantially more than that.

His current contract guarantees him $5.41 million for life...

Sometimes being the first to pay more just means you recognize the value that others don't yet see.

I'm just grateful we have an alum and community member who is worth $8 Billion and already owns two professional sports teams––and an AD willing to shake those trees.

Self accepts KU coaching job

Kansas University will introduce Bill Self as the school’s eighth men’s basketball coach at a 1 p.m. Monday news conference. Several sources confirmed today that Self, 40, who led Illinois to a 78-24 record in three seasons, has accepted the job at Kansas. According to sources, Self’s contract...

m.kusports.com

The first Illinois game I ever watched was Self’s last (against ND in the RCA Dome). Did he come out and say he was staying at Illinois at any point?

 

[Manual3for4peat]

Earlier someone said it was odd that Matta wasn’t contacted. Rumor at that time was that RG didn’t want another “job hopper” and thus went with the guy that was happy being an assistant for 18 years. That hire was like getting probation for two decades. Had we won it all with Self’s kids we’d still be dealing with Bruce is my guess.

mans yes. Somehow the university of Kansas is KU. You can tell they put a huge emphasis on education here...lol

 

[Keisersose]

The first Illinois game I ever watched was Self’s last (against ND in the RCA Dome). Did he come out and say he was staying at Illinois at any point?

IIRC he like Kansas is talking to someone and it’s not Bill self. We alll were like “yeah they are talking to your agent”

 

[Epsilon]

I want to be clear that I think Kentucky is clearly the best job in the nation, and a coach with a competitive fire/dreams of a championship is likely to jump at the opportunity to coach there (almost) no matter where he is currently employed. However, just for discussion, I do have to wonder if the modern era has SOMEWHAT diluted the appeal of the "elite programs" to coaches. This likely affects those jobs just under the "UK Tier", but just as an example, imagine these two jobs, one with elite tradition and the other with "good" tradition:

Indiana: 5 National Titles, 8 Final Fours, 11 Elite Eights, 23 Sweet Sixteens, 39 NCAAT Appearances, .645 All-Time Winning Pctg., 560 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time
Texas: 0 National Titles, 3 Final Fours, 7 Elite Eights, 13 Sweet Sixteens, 35 NCAAT Appearances, .623 All-Time Winning Pctg., 269 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time

You won't find a ranking of all-time programs that puts IU outside of the top 7, and you likely also will not find one with Texas inside the top 20. However, I take that Texas job every day of the week. They have plenty of money, their instate talent is better than Indiana's, their conference has fewer historical powers to get past in ascending the ladder, their facilities are better and their fans won't turn on you during the middle of a rebuild because you haven't brought them back to the promised land yet. That's just one example, but I do kind of wonder if your "sleeping giant"-type programs have become a lot more attractive to prospective coaches now a days than some of the traditional powerhouses. Again, this likely doesn't apply to UK, UNC, Duke, UCLA or KU, who will always be elite jobs. But IU? Louisville? Syracuse? These jobs are all EXCEPTIONAL jobs, but they would have been no-brainers over Texas 30 years ago (IMO), but now I would honestly prefer Texas.

I get where you are going with this but I’m not so sure Texas fans are that forgiving either. Seems like Skaka Smart has been on the hot seat since he got there.

 

[Seagee]

It may also mean that relative to the value they bring, top recruiting assistant coaches are underpaid. At $1 million a year, OA would be making 1/9 of what Cal makes. Do you think his value as a recruiter, not to mention as a great big-man coach, is less than 1/9 Cal's value to UK? Probably not.

100%. Rather than this just being the start of an arms race for assistant salaries in absolute terms, it may instead be ushering a correction that brings more parity between the salaries of assistants and head coaches.

UI currently pays Underwood $3.4 mm, while paying Antigua $424,671 (1/8), and Chin $281,250 (1/12).

Given that the two of them are bringing in 90% of the player talent, I can see a strong argument for their deserving a bigger piece of the overall coaching salary pie.

UK's record with and without Antigua's recruiting underscores why they were the first to whip out the bigger checkbook. If I were Cal, I'd be happy to shave off one of my $8mm per year to bring Orlando back and continue making the other $7mm.

 

[illini80]

I agree. Rather than this just being the start of an arms race for assistant salaries in absolute terms, it may instead be ushering a correction that brings more parity between the salaries of assistants and head coaches.

UI currently pays Underwood $3.4 mm, while paying Antigua $424,671 (1/8), and Chin $281,250 (1/12).

Given that the two of them are bringing in 90% of the player talent, I can see how they might deserve a bigger piece of the coaching salary pie.

I think they both have deserved the money they’ve gotten, but let‘s not forget each of their careers and salary’s has improved very nicely during their time here. And while they’ve done a great job, they haven’t led us to the promised land just yet. I want them to get market appropriate raises and stay, but I’m shocked they are being sought out like we just won a NC.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

On another topic being discussed here, I am also of the opinion that if you kept everything about the Self situation the same in 2003 except JW (in his current form) is our AD, Self ONLY leaves for Kansas ... and maybe not even there. I think RG had the "Illinois is special because it's Illinois" attitude and was offended when someone couldn't see that. Just conjecture, of course. Whitman seems to understand that this is a business, and Illinois has the potential to be one of the biggest players nationally, but it will require acting like the other big players.

 

[sbillini]

I disagree. We're caught up in a bidding war against a program with deeper pockets than our own. One of us is going to make Antigua the highest paid assistant coach in the history of the sport. And, if you're paying more than has ever been paid before, you're probably overpaying. I'm not sure that's the best example of capitalism.

that's kind of the best example of capitalism. it's called price discovery. if UI or UK decides that the price is affordable and worth it, that's the new market price. If nobody else follows suit, then, yes, they overpaid. If they do, then a new market price has been set. that's how stock prices work, and how paying employees work. It's difficult to know for sure if you're overpaying at the time you're paying it. That would be JW and BU's job to figure out to the best of their abilities. But with hindsight, we know that we didn't properly ascertain Self's value.

 

[IlliniwekKDR]

Anybody who says that it's not worth paying more than something is perceived to be worth in order to not get outbid, I hope you aren't in the market to buy a house right now. There's a lot of opportunity missed if you don't do what it takes to secure what you need and want.

 

[Whitewaterr]

I disagree. We're caught up in a bidding war against a program with deeper pockets than our own. One of us is going to make Antigua the highest paid assistant coach in the history of the sport. And, if you're paying more than has ever been paid before, you're probably overpaying. I'm not sure that's the best example of capitalism.

Idk bro...

 

[Illwinsagain]

Anybody who says that it's not worth paying more than something is perceived to be worth in order to not get outbid, I hope you aren't in the market to buy a house right now. There's a lot of opportunity missed if you don't do what it takes to secure what you need and want.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CN20CU7hH_H/?igshid=ecl1ve5hkxew

This applies to housing and apparently assistant coaching markets.

 

[Deleted member 11188]

The first Illinois game I ever watched was Self’s last (against ND in the RCA Dome). Did he come out and say he was staying at Illinois at any point?

IIRC, Self's name was floated in 2003 when Carolina was looking for a coach (doubt there was any meat behind it). Anyway, he was asked about it and said along the lines of, "if Carolina calls you have to listen", which is coach-speak for, "heck yes, I'd jump at it!" Right then I knew he wasn't long for Illinois.

 

[812Jamie]

I want to be clear that I think Kentucky is clearly the best job in the nation, and a coach with a competitive fire/dreams of a championship is likely to jump at the opportunity to coach there (almost) no matter where he is currently employed. However, just for discussion, I do have to wonder if the modern era has SOMEWHAT diluted the appeal of the "elite programs" to coaches. This likely affects those jobs just under the "UK Tier", but just as an example, imagine these two jobs, one with elite tradition and the other with "good" tradition:

Indiana: 5 National Titles, 8 Final Fours, 11 Elite Eights, 23 Sweet Sixteens, 39 NCAAT Appearances, .645 All-Time Winning Pctg., 560 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time
Texas: 0 National Titles, 3 Final Fours, 7 Elite Eights, 13 Sweet Sixteens, 35 NCAAT Appearances, .623 All-Time Winning Pctg., 269 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time

You won't find a ranking of all-time programs that puts IU outside of the top 7, and you likely also will not find one with Texas inside the top 20. However, I take that Texas job every day of the week. They have plenty of money, their instate talent is better than Indiana's, their conference has fewer historical powers to get past in ascending the ladder, their facilities are better and their fans won't turn on you during the middle of a rebuild because you haven't brought them back to the promised land yet. That's just one example, but I do kind of wonder if your "sleeping giant"-type programs have become a lot more attractive to prospective coaches now a days than some of the traditional powerhouses. Again, this likely doesn't apply to UK, UNC, Duke, UCLA or KU, who will always be elite jobs. But IU? Louisville? Syracuse? These jobs are all EXCEPTIONAL jobs, but they would have been no-brainers over Texas 30 years ago (IMO), but now I would honestly prefer Texas.

I really appreciate your research! Here are some things I think about.

Do most kids only care about right now? UK, Duke, UNC and KU have all been successful recently, but did any kid -- outside of some other loyalty -- really care much about UCLA before the tourney? I goes in such waves. From the late 90s to mid 2000s, Arizona was the spot. UCLA went to 3 straight FFs in the late 2000s but then fell. Right now Nova is viewed highly (and it should be) but did any kid care 15-20 years ago?

Successful hoops can happen darn-near anywhere. Sustaining is harder but not impossible. Izzo has proven that. Jay Wright has too. I think you could have long-term success at Ohio St, Michigan, Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, Florida, Oregon, UConn, Arkansas, and Arizona just to name a few. Football money helps but the right guy is key (and then keep him with some of that football money. Ha).

Texas might be more appealing because they're football-first. IU is not. Despite the histories, that might be the decider for some dudes who jump want to lay lower and coach.

 

[goillini30]

I want to be clear that I think Kentucky is clearly the best job in the nation, and a coach with a competitive fire/dreams of a championship is likely to jump at the opportunity to coach there (almost) no matter where he is currently employed. However, just for discussion, I do have to wonder if the modern era has SOMEWHAT diluted the appeal of the "elite programs" to coaches. This likely affects those jobs just under the "UK Tier", but just as an example, imagine these two jobs, one with elite tradition and the other with "good" tradition:

Indiana: 5 National Titles, 8 Final Fours, 11 Elite Eights, 23 Sweet Sixteens, 39 NCAAT Appearances, .645 All-Time Winning Pctg., 560 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time
Texas: 0 National Titles, 3 Final Fours, 7 Elite Eights, 13 Sweet Sixteens, 35 NCAAT Appearances, .623 All-Time Winning Pctg., 269 Weeks in AP Poll All-Time

You won't find a ranking of all-time programs that puts IU outside of the top 7, and you likely also will not find one with Texas inside the top 20. However, I take that Texas job every day of the week. They have plenty of money, their instate talent is better than Indiana's, their conference has fewer historical powers to get past in ascending the ladder, their facilities are better and their fans won't turn on you during the middle of a rebuild because you haven't brought them back to the promised land yet. That's just one example, but I do kind of wonder if your "sleeping giant"-type programs have become a lot more attractive to prospective coaches now a days than some of the traditional powerhouses. Again, this likely doesn't apply to UK, UNC, Duke, UCLA or KU, who will always be elite jobs. But IU? Louisville? Syracuse? These jobs are all EXCEPTIONAL jobs, but they would have been no-brainers over Texas 30 years ago (IMO), but now I would honestly prefer Texas.

To prove your point a little bit, UCLA's last coaching search was somewhat of a debacle. It looks like they ended up with the right guy, but it wasn't pretty getting there.

What UCLA's coaching search said about the program's state

UCLA’s coaching search, in the greater context of the program’s recent struggles, showed a disconnect between expectations and reality in Westwood.

www.si.com

 

[Illwinsagain]

IIRC, Self's name was floated in 2003 when Carolina was looking for a coach (doubt there was any meat behind it). Anyway, he was asked about it and said along the lines of, "if Carolina calls you have to listen", which is coach-speak for, "heck yes, I'd jump at it!" Right then I knew he wasn't long for Illinois.

I was listening to the Score, and Terry Boars called it. Carolina was open, Self dismissed it, but Boars jumped in saying, not Carolina, but Kansas when Roy jumps. (paraphrased)