Zorak
- Naperville
Yes.
Illini Basketball
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chrisRunner7
- Spokane, WA
I don't buy that the Big Ten is unique in "bludgeoning" each other during the conference season.
Also don't think the tournament ending on Sunday matters. SEC and Big 12 ended on Sunday. ACC and Big East ended on Saturday night, IIRC.
I do think some bad luck is involved, but it's hard to ignore the recruiting rankings. I am hoping NIL will even things out some in light of my gut feeling that some conferences (uh, SEC?) cheated way more in recruiting than the Big Ten in the past. The Big Ten also has some great schools with great tradition, but doesn't quite have the blue bloods like Duke, UNC, Kentucky or Kansas now that Indiana has been mostly mediocre for so long, so the Big Ten has a disadvantage in that area as well. Hoping things go on a downhill slide for Hubert Davis and Jon Scheyer.
Should add in that Trent and DMW were not even top 100 recruits but lead us to this (with Ayo and Kofi help of course). Having 2 players with that many meaningful minutes that weren’t top 100 will eventually catch-up to you. Especially when you consider that grandison and Plummer got minutes too. I know they were sought after transfers, but there’s a reason they started at low levels (juco and d3)
Possibly only one that will have a big impact. Ivey.
I would agree that the jury is still out. Remember Trent and Damonte were inherited. This year couldn't have gone any worse from injury to concussions to pink eye to suspension to emergency appendectomy (or go back to the beginning when we lost 3 assistant coaches and Miller transferred). Not sure there was worse luck for any other team. And remember Houston is really really good and experienced - 3rd straight year to the Sweet 16 I believe??. We were tied and within a bucket or two late in the game w/out Grandy and Trent with one good eye. We were never able to hit our stride yet we shared a Big 10 Title.
Next year is an important year b/c all players will be Underwood's recruits. Part of me thinks (right or wrong), Underwood wanted to show loyalty to Trent and Damonte b/c they stuck this thing out and helped change the culture so he played them way too many minutes in the tourney. It was his way to reward them. Deep down I think many of us and even the coaching staff knew we weren't the type of team (with everything happening above and 2 starters who were the last of the old regime) that could make a Final Four. There is a big difference in what Underwood has recruited and what he inherited from a sheer physical standpoint. He's bringing in shooters that are long and athletic. We haven't had multiple players like that since '89? Even the unbelievable 2004-05 team were more shooters than long athletic bball players. Guys like Hawkins, RJ, Rodgers, and shooters like Podz and Goode with size are the makeup of a team that could make a very deep run. I will say the in-game adjustments have been pretty disappointing, but look where we are and where we were just a few years ago.
1. Underwood needs to start listening to his assistants for in-game adjustments.
2. We need a player/leader (someone vocal).
If we get these two things Illinois will be a perennial Sweet 16 team for years to come with a handful of Elite Eight, Final Four appearances and just maybe a National Title.
Underwood has proven he's a good judge of talent and a good recruiter. We also have nice ties with our assistants and Underwood has shown when they leave he can find other successful assistants.
One final point, Kofi actually can create problems for US on offense sometimes. I agree with dumping the ball to him, but he automatically draws at least 2 if not 3 or 4 defenders and clogs the lane and baseline, so slashers can't get in the middle or near the hoop without a lot of traffic (not to mention we stand around a lot). I'd love to see more high ball screens for him and getting him the ball around the free throw line. I don't even mind if he floats around the 3 point line from time to time through purposeful movement. It will open up the lane b/c we have some good shooters. I love Kofi and hope he comes back but maybe a little different use at times (not all the time, but shake it up a little so Goode, Melendez, Hawkins, Rodger, etc. can slash and score. Would make us harder to scout and stop and would give Kofi more experience for his next chapter having to move along the perimeter.
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Possibly. There were about 30 NBA GMs who didn't think Ayo justified a 1st round pick...
I'm not sure what else Murray could do to convince you he belongs on a NBA roster. He's a day one starter. I also feel like Branham is just beginning to tap into his potential. Slightly more tempered on Davis & Liddell's NBA careers, but those dudes are going to have roster spots for the next 8-10 years.
We are FAR deeper than any other conference. Very few games off. Zero games off on the road.
The fatigue of that gauntlet along with another slog fest through the tournament is why I think we have seen some struggles the last few years.
2018-19 when they went to 20 game schedule we sent 8 teams, only 3 made the Sweet 16z
2019-20- argument could be made we would have sent 9 teams. No tournament.
2020-21 9 teams in the tournament,1 makes the sweet 16. The team that made it played 3 less Big 10 games than everyone else. Correlation? I don’t know.
Then we see what has happened this year.
I am fine with being wrong. But I don’t think I am.
Underwood's first four tournament teams were all double-digit seeds, and he managed to win his first round game in two of those years (#12 SFA vs. #5 VCU in '14 and #14 SFA vs. #3 WVU in '16, with a one-point loss to #6 ND in the next game). It's wildly disingenuous to say that he did not have tournament success while at SFA and instead it appears that he exceeded expectations.
He's not met expectations here in the tournament, which is disappointing. But he has enjoyed some success in the tournament overall if you're willing to take context into account.
I just don't get all the shade thrown towards Brad Underwood. He is a good coach and we are lucky to have him. My small high school was a well known basketball school and had competed at a top level winning the State championship as well as three other appearances when it was still one class. Fast forward 35 yrs later the program was average at best in a two class system. Then we got a coach who started us winning regionals and then Conference championships. We started getting farther in the playoffs every year. Then we started having some really good teams we thought would go to state but they kept getting tripped up somewhere. Then the talk started, he couldn't coach or win the big games. A few years later we finally make it to the championship but fall short in that one. A few years after that we take a State championship which he followed up with another 7 or 8 years later. Oh and there was talk he should move on before he won the second one. By the end of his career he was known for being best big game coach in the bottom half of the state along with being able to coach his teams up to over achieve year after year. I'm not saying this is where BU will take the Illini, but I am saying it is way, way, way too early to be doubting what he can do for this program and how far he can take us. I apologize for the long post.
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I did not say that they would not be on a roster. I am not sold Davis and Murray will be that great in the NBA. Liddel will end up being a 3 and D guy that will carve out minutes. Ivey and Branham have the highest ceiling by far.
Putting Kofi at the free throw line or 3 point line to open up the lane sounds like a good idea....but since he's not going to shoot from there the defense will still sag back into the lane. He would also have to greatly improve his passing if he's out on the perimeter, and he hasn't proven to be very adept at that.
I agree. I'm not saying Illinois can do better than Underwood, but he is like a poor man's Calipari.
His recruiting has been very good, but he basically just lets them play. I put a post out there almost two months ago complaining about three things...
1) Not moving away from the ball, not moving/repositioning after you throw the ball into Kofi to punish the double team and make yourself available for an easier 3.
2) Not boxing out consistently
3) Bad inbounds plays.
Those three things were their weakness all year, and all three are coachable. They didn't improve those things. Their performance as the season wore on slid backwards a little. I think their rebounding slid as teams realized they didn't box out and started sending more people to the glass. You get away with weaknesses like a bad inbounds game during the regular season because teams are (relatively) less concerned with scouting a specific opponent and (relatively) more concerned with improving their own teams. When you get to the tourney and coaching to the next opponent is 100% of the goal, those weaknesses get exposed.
There is no shame in losing to Houston. They were a better team than Illinois before they drew the bracket. They should have been a 2 seed. But, it is frustrating that the Illini weren't at a point where they were tighter/better/more versatile by the time they got to the tourney. On a related note, Illinois doesn't run any zone, doesn't run any motion offense, etc. They run the weave and the 4 out push the ball into the post. It is really simple and doesn't prepare them to alter their style to fit their opponent or even to mix it up regardless of the opponent.
I can't help but think a better-coached team would just have more tools at their disposal by the end of the year. Especially since I think their players on the whole are pretty coachable. Frazier and Williams have very high basketball IQ (as does Melendez). I don't think that anyone has low basketball IQ (even though Curbelo has some bad habits).
Jacob Grandison played at College of Holy Cross which is DI (Patriot League), though arguably mid-major.
This x1000! We are set up for success now. Not so much 4 years ago. Trent and Damonte got the ball rolling but we keep stacking classes we will be much better than we are now.
I'd like to have seen kofi learn to move around without getting too far from the basket. I hate the post up in the middle of the lane with the entry from the top of the key. Hard pass, hard catch, clogged lane. If he went block to block more and sometimes set a back-pick for a cutter across the lane only to drift down to the short corner on the weak-side, they'd have a more open lane for driving, he'd be less beat up, and he'd get easy alley-oops and dump-offs for 4 footers and dunks. That only works though if everyone is moving. It has to be an actual motion offense.
They just didn't ever even try to run a motion offense with him in it. They settled for him just posting up from the second the ball crossed half court and occasionally doing pick and roll.
LubbockIlliniFan
- Savoy, IL
but that wasn't your what you commented about...it was that the Big Ten doesn't produce enough NBA talent...true the Big Ten isn't producing lots of All Stars, but there are lots of former Big Ten players on NBA rosters, and more coming...plus the kid from Nebraska
But I didn't say that. Disingenuous implies that someone is dishonest and is holding back information intentionally.
Which I have given him credit. I said he knows how to get most of his talent (see: Stephen F. Austin).
Curbelo could have made a difference in the second half defense and rebounding against their guards killed us - and that is Belos strength
With the season on the line it was a very weird ending - I haven’t seen us give up like that in the last 6 min
With the season on the line it was a very weird ending - I haven’t seen us give up like that in the last 6 min
I think we are kind of limited on what we can do with Kofi. While he does get up and down the floor decently he is not very mobile in the half court offense and becomes less as the game goes on from the pounding he takes. I like your idea but I think Kofi needs to come back 15 pounds lighter to give him more bounce and mobility. As he is he is an unmovable force in the paint and we are kind of stuck using him that way. That being said I will take 20/10 from our 5 every year we can get it.
Not really. Curbelo was on Houston's team in the first half from where I was sitting. What makes you think he wasnt going to continue to keep passing the ball to Houston in the 2nd half as well? And before you say "He only had 2 turnovers". I consider every shot Curbelo takes, that isnt a free throw, a turnover. Epps (and hopefully Skyy) cant get here soon enough.
I can come up with a different word to describe it if you'd like, but if your sole criterion here is whether or not he's gotten teams past the first week you're adequately measuring his ability to get past the first week but that's about it. That's not descriptive of the level of success he's had in the tournament at all, because two-thirds of his tournament history has been coaching teams where the second week is not a realistic goal.
I'm not picking on you specifically, but it seems a lot of people are projecting whatever part of this program's shortcomings upset them the most onto Underwood's coaching abilities and the players' character and virtually none of it is supported by the evidence at hand. I get it, sort of, but it still sucks.
You mean the loss the the eventual final 4 team that almost defeated the runner up loaded Zags?
I agree with you, but it would just be one body in the lane vs. potentially 3 or 4. And again, we wouldn't have to do it every possession. But if we did it let's say 1 out of every 3-4 possessions it gives the defense a different look and forces them to play more honestly. You could tell that Chattanooga and Houston new exactly what we were going to do on offense. If Hawkins, Podz, Goode, and Melendez are in the game (same with Grandy if he comes back) the off the ball defenders can't clog up the middle or we'll rain threes. You could run some nice pick action on Kofi's guy in the lane as well for backside lobs. I'd just like to see us switch it up a little. B/c if we force feed Kofi most of the game and just sit at the three-point line all game, most good teams will shut that down. Kofi got a little better passing, but still is far from good. Would like to see him keep working on it. If he becomes just a decent passer that's a huge asset.
One other thing to add. We should run! Hawkins, Curbelo, and Melendez (even Payne if he's on the team) can fly!!! Sounding like our incoming freshmen can do the same. Most are pretty decent ball handlers as well. With the depth we should have, we should play with a lot more pace. I'd like to see more substitutions to keep guys fresh, not only during the game, but for the entirety of the season. Trent and Kofi looked gassed quite a bit late in the season.
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That was my fault. We don’t have top tier NBA talent.
Also, it is not like these arguments are 1:1 correlations. Two examples: 1. Ohio St. I think they have two guys that will be rich playing in the NBA. I think Branham will be a very good player and Liddell will be solid. But the rest of their team is putrid. 2. Keegan Murray. It would not surprise me to see him being a very good player in the NBA, but I don’t think he will be. Not sure why. I think Iowa beats Richmond 7/10 after winning the Big 10 tournament. So that was bad luck. But, I think Iowa beats Richmond 9/10 if they don’t play in the championship game.
Once again, just my opinion.
Well, in fairness this shows you just how low your bball iq is. So you accomplished that today!
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