Illini Basketball

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#401      

Bigtex

Bigtex
DFW
Bigtex
illini0440 said:
Go watch a coach K, Izzo, Cal, Huggins practice....heck even Self.
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fair but also watch them on sidelines and interactions with players. do you get tired of hearing about the relationship with Izzo and Hoggard? Sure Izzo was hard on him but he also showed him Love/respect at other times. there is a balance.

Not sure Plummer could guard me but.....his PT wasn't impacted. Very selective approach when it comes to not being able to defend effectively.
 
#402      

MAUI DERON

MAUI DERON
MAUI DERON
illini0440 said:
Go watch a coach K, Izzo, Cal, Huggins practice....heck even Self.
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Like I said I’m all for tough love and I think the kids these days are too soft but it was unacceptable in my view. Maybe coaching involves calling kids these names and berating them like that and Underwood doesn’t want players who can’t handle that. Who knows.
 
#403      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
Rudd21 said:
It’s 6 years later. Whatever the program looked like 6 years ago is irrelevant. The year that Groce got fired:

Groce’s 5th year. 18-14 (8-10)
Underwood’s 6th year: 20-13 (11-9)

Not that much different. Underwood’s issues is his record without Kofi, and the yearly attrition of key players that will prevent this team from getting to the next level.

Most fans aren’t happy with this level. Better than Groce isn’t enough. Not 6 years into a regime.

Just my opinion
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This is just a REALLY strange perspective ... you're talking like we have seen 6 years of what we saw this year. It isn't "6 years later" of this year's type of team. If you are not giving any goodwill for a stretch of three seasons where we won more games than any team in our conference, you are just not being fair at all. Period.

- To judge anything before 2019-20 is just insane, I think we can all agree on that ... you have to rebuild, and two years is pretty damn fast.
- In 2019-20, we would have been anything from a #5 to #7 seed, but the Tournament was cancelled. Given where we were, this was a smashing success of a season.
- 2021 was an objectively elite regular season (we got a #1 seed for Christ's sake) with a disappointing NCAAT. On one hand, a #1 seed has lost in the Second Round in 5 of the last 6 NCAA Tournaments (i.e., it happens). On the other, we REALLY should have had a deeper run with Ayo and Kofi and that team.
- 2022 was an objectively great regular season (we got our first Big Ten banner in 17 years!!). Should we have gone further than the Second Round? Highly subjective. Houston proved to be way better than a #5 seed, and a 4/5 is a pick 'em anyway. This is VERY comparable to our 2003 team that hung a Big Ten banner, got a #4 seed and lost in the Second Round to Notre Dame. Disappointing? Sure. Objective failure? If you are being extremely harsh, I guess...
- 2023 was "expected" on paper (to make the NCAAT after losing five starters and an All-American is a pretty great rebuilding year...) but an underachievement given the talent. Even if you want to chalk it up to an utter disaster, how can you act like we have been seeing this over and over and it's finally time for a change?!
 
#405      

Illiniguy13

Illiniguy13
Illiniguy13
MAUI DERON said:
I will share a story from the 2018 Maui Invitational tournament. I got into a closed practice for Illinois the day before the tournament started at the local high school gym. I personally witnessed Brad Underwood call a player a pu$$y multiple times for losing the ball to a defender. “You’re a p$$y” and “You’re soft as ####” over and over for about a minute. This was in front of the entire team and a group of young basketball kids who were also there watching the practice. It was a terrible thing to watch, very uncomfortable and I’m all for tough love but don’t see how that was coaching. The player was Alan Griffin.
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I've also seen the movie Varsity Blues
 
#407      

illinipimp

illinipimp
illinipimp
sacraig said:
I was thinking something similar. Just once I want these people to just air it out. Or at least not outright make things up.
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Exactly. Like the pro athlete who leaves and always tells you it isn’t about the money!
 
#408      

IMPE Legend

I
IMPE Legend
Hate to say it this way, but Epps is gone and no reason to care about it anymore. Don't know why he left. I think its now impossible to predict who will leave. Its unfortunate that the current system breeds this lack of caring. In the players and in the fans. Hopefully something will change because this does not help college athletics. Hell, pro teams don't have people leaving this much because they realize fans would lose interest.

That being said I think the important person to figure out now is RJ. With the social media changes he made is he on his way out too?
 
#412      

Illinirog70

Illinirog70
Illinirog70
illini0440 said:
Scroll up....
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No one likes to, or should be talked to like underwood yelled and swore at him. He was recovering from a concussion and wasn’t himself clearly. As soon as I saw that I knew he was gone. He was the only natural scorer we have. This loss is entirely on Underwood. And it disturbs me that he can’t control his temper. He’s another Iowa Fran with Better recruiting skills but much worse game skills.
 
#413      

illini510

I
illini510
I'm not very happy with Epps, unlike many of the people here. His sideline attitude and demeanor speaks to a very immature kid who put "me" before "team." I think the writing was on the wall here and unfortunately, Chester couldn't salvage the hard/tense feelings that built up between Epps and Underwood. His talent is undeniable but his character is questionable. So, maybe it is addition by subtraction. There were some bad seeds on this roster and it showed in the overall product of the team.
 
#414      

ILLFAN67

I
ILLFAN67
Bigtex said:
fair but also watch them on sidelines and interactions with players. do you get tired of hearing about the relationship with Izzo and Hoggard? Sure Izzo was hard on him but he also showed him Love/respect at other times. there is a balance.

Not sure Plummer could guard me but.....his PT wasn't impacted. Very selective approach when it comes to not being able to defend effectively.
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Plummer got benched all the time at the ends of games for defense. Plus Plummer scored all year. Jayden scoring fell off towards the end of the year and I’m pretty sure wasn’t fully recovered from concussion. Or at least did t look like it.
 
#415      

DAM1298

D
DAM1298
Interesting quote from Coleman (via Rothstein)

“I want to be on a roster that has a chance to do something big — win a national title,” Hawkins said. “I hope if I do come back that we will have a more veteran team and a chance of being a really great team.”

Sounds like someone who’s absolutely entertaining coming back. Also sounds like someone who was annoyed by the antics of young guys like Skyy and Epps this year.. putting the pressure on Brad to put together a good, veteran roster
 
#416      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
ILLFAN67 said:
Plummer got benched all the time at the ends of games for defense. Plus Plummer scored all year. Jayden scoring fell off towards the end of the year and I’m pretty sure wasn’t fully recovered from concussion. Or at least did t look like it.
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My memory is hazy of the exact plays, but I seem to remember Plummer being the only reason we made it to the Second Round last year, haha.
 
#417      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
Illinirog70 said:
No one likes to, or should be talked to like underwood yelled and swore at him. He was recovering from a concussion and wasn’t himself clearly. As soon as I saw that I knew he was gone. He was the only natural scorer we have. This loss is entirely on Underwood. And it disturbs me that he can’t control his temper. He’s another Iowa Fran with Better recruiting skills but much worse game skills.
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Did ... did you just say Fran has better game skills than Underwood? What evidence is there of that, seriously?
 
#418      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
Fighter of the Nightman said:
This is just a REALLY strange perspective ... you're talking like we have seen 6 years of what we saw this year. It isn't "6 years later" of this year's type of team. If you are not giving any goodwill for a stretch of three seasons where we won more games than any team in our conference, you are just not being fair at all. Period.

- To judge anything before 2019-20 is just insane, I think we can all agree on that ... you have to rebuild, and two years is pretty damn fast.
- In 2019-20, we would have been anything from a #5 to #7 seed, but the Tournament was cancelled. Given where we were, this was a smashing success of a season.
- 2021 was an objectively elite regular season (we got a #1 seed for Christ's sake) with a disappointing NCAAT. On one hand, a #1 seed has lost in the Second Round in 5 of the last 6 NCAA Tournaments (i.e., it happens). On the other, we REALLY should have had a deeper run with Ayo and Kofi and that team.
- 2022 was an objectively great regular season (we got our first Big Ten banner in 17 years!!). Should we have gone further than the Second Round? Highly subjective. Houston proved to be way better than a #5 seed, and a 4/5 is a pick 'em anyway. This is VERY comparable to our 2003 team that hung a Big Ten banner, got a #4 seed and lost in the Second Round to Notre Dame. Disappointing? Sure. Objective failure? If you are being extremely harsh, I guess...
- 2023 was "expected" on paper (to make the NCAAT after losing five starters and an All-American is a pretty great rebuilding year...) but an underachievement given the talent. Even if you want to chalk it up to an utter disaster, how can you act like we have been seeing this over and over and it's finally time for a change?!
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Even 6 years of what we saw this year would be 6 straight non-bubble NCAA tournaments. So it's still incomparably better than the Groce years.

We had a few Groce-like games this year. It was not a Groce-like season.
 
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#419      

grue2

G
grue2
SCMART Illini said:
What did Underwood do this year that made everyone turn on him? ....
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I believe you (and others) are conflating wanting the negative yelling improved with turning on the coach. As one of the people objecting to the swearing rant, let me try again.

I'm not objecting to yelling. Yelling can be constructive. I am objecting to the yelling of a stream of obscenities and the expectation that the player stands there looking him in the eye as the spittle flies in their face as he does nothing but curse. (Watch the vid.) That is not constructive. The fact that the player is looking away should be a major hint that it isn't working.

This doesn't mean he is not a good coach overall. Everyone can improve. This is an area where I believe Underwood can improve significantly, and doing so will help the team.

People keep comparing him to other coaches that scream. Sometimes they swear. I've not seen extended, exclusively swearing rants like that from other coaches. People keep raising Izzo as a comparison. Yes, he yells. Much of the time, he is telling them what they did wrong albeit in a very loud animated manner. Yes, there can be some cursing in there. (Lip reading.)
 
#420      

Bigtex

Bigtex
DFW
Bigtex
Fighter of the Nightman said:
My memory is hazy of the exact plays, but I seem to remember Plummer being the only reason we made it to the Second Round last year, haha.
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Plummer shot us to multiple wins - that is not the issue - last I checked there was 2 ends of a basketball court. It has been stated that Epps was a poor defender thus less playing time. Unfortunately our roster meant having to play some stronger offensive players who were not strong defensively. Again very selective approach regarding less PT for defensive effort/results.
 
#421      

illini0440

illini0440
illini0440
Illinirog70 said:
No one likes to, or should be talked to like underwood yelled and swore at him. He was recovering from a concussion and wasn’t himself clearly. As soon as I saw that I knew he was gone. He was the only natural scorer we have. This loss is entirely on Underwood. And it disturbs me that he can’t control his temper. He’s another Iowa Fran with Better recruiting skills but much worse game skills.
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Well it happened well before the concussion but yes think what you want!
 
#422      

Dbell1981

D
Decatur, IL
Dbell1981
Fighter of the Nightman said:
Yeah, I have not seen anyone act like losing Epps is not a significant loss "on paper." The most anyone has done is try to temper just how big of a deal it will be, especially with so many options in the portal and Underwood having an objectively pretty successful track record at recruiting the portal.
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How dare you bring logic to this board!
 
#423      

Second place is 1st loser

S
Second place is 1st loser
DAM1298 said:
Interesting quote from Coleman (via Rothstein)

“I want to be on a roster that has a chance to do something big — win a national title,” Hawkins said. “I hope if I do come back that we will have a more veteran team and a chance of being a really great team.”

Sounds like someone who’s absolutely entertaining coming back. Also sounds like someone who was annoyed by the antics of young guys like Skyy and Epps this year.. putting the pressure on Brad to put together a good, veteran roster
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That's exactly what it sounds like. He's going to get paid either way(staying in the draft or NIL money). BU has some work to do to to make that happen for him. It was clear at the end of the season how he felt about some of the young guys and their lack of maturity and he doubled down with this. He was clear at the end of the year that this was not a coach problem. TSJ....similar comments. Will be an interesting couple of months.
 
#424      

ILLFAN67

I
ILLFAN67
Fighter of the Nightman said:
My memory is hazy of the exact plays, but I seem to remember Plummer being the only reason we made it to the Second Round last year, haha.
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I agree somebody just mentioned there was a double standard for not playing defense. Plummer provided much more offense than Epps did. I really liked Epps offensive potential if he stayed I think in the next couple yrs he could really be a great player. But his total production from last yr shouldn’t be that hard to replace with an experienced pg from the portal. Especially one that has actual pg skills not just scoring.
 
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