Illini Basketball

[727ill]

Plummer shot us to multiple wins - that is not the issue - last I checked there was 2 ends of a basketball court. It has been stated that Epps was a poor defender thus less playing time. Unfortunately our roster meant having to play some stronger offensive players who were not strong defensively. Again very selective approach regarding less PT for defensive effort/results.

Plummer shot 40% from three on a huge volume and provided much needed floor spacing for Kofi. A guy like that has some leash to be a minus on the defensive end.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

I agree somebody just mentioned there was a double standard for not playing defense. Plummer provided much more offense than Epps did. I really liked Epps offensive potential if he stayed I think in the next couple yrs he could really be a great player. But his total production from last yr shouldn’t be that hard to replace with an experienced pg from the portal. Especially one that has actual pg skills not just scoring.

No I know, his defense was shaky. I was just reminiscing of what it was like to have someone who could hit a three, haha.

 

[Get yourself a new map]

Like I said I’m all for tough love and I think the kids these days are too soft but it was unacceptable in my view. Maybe coaching involves calling kids these names and berating them like that and Underwood doesn’t want players who can’t handle that. Who knows.

Listen, a grown man wants to call me that, even if he loves me deep down, I think he should also be able to take it right back. Shoot, listen to the way hockey players chirp at each other and talk about guys they have been in fisticuffs with - plenty of mutual respect.... If I were telling a kid how not tough he was and he wanted to mix it up in a physical manner, barring any cheap shots, I couldn't get mad at him for a swing or two. As a matter of fact, one of my closest friends gave me a real good bloody nose / shiner in college. He apologized quite sincerely the next day; I understood why and how it happened. We cool.

 

[Dbell1981]

This is just a REALLY strange perspective ... you're talking like we have seen 6 years of what we saw this year. It isn't "6 years later" of this year's type of team. If you are not giving any goodwill for a stretch of three seasons where we won more games than any team in our conference, you are just not being fair at all. Period.

- To judge anything before 2019-20 is just insane, I think we can all agree on that ... you have to rebuild, and two years is pretty damn fast.
- In 2019-20, we would have been anything from a #5 to #7 seed, but the Tournament was cancelled. Given where we were, this was a smashing success of a season.
- 2021 was an objectively elite regular season (we got a #1 seed for Christ's sake) with a disappointing NCAAT. On one hand, a #1 seed has lost in the Second Round in 5 of the last 6 NCAA Tournaments (i.e., it happens). On the other, we REALLY should have had a deeper run with Ayo and Kofi and that team.
- 2022 was an objectively great regular season (we got our first Big Ten banner in 17 years!!). Should we have gone further than the Second Round? Highly subjective. Houston proved to be way better than a #5 seed, and a 4/5 is a pick 'em anyway. This is VERY comparable to our 2003 team that hung a Big Ten banner, got a #4 seed and lost in the Second Round to Notre Dame. Disappointing? Sure. Objective failure? If you are being extremely harsh, I guess...
- 2023 was "expected" on paper (to make the NCAAT after losing five starters and an All-American is a pretty great rebuilding year...) but an underachievement given the talent. Even if you want to chalk it up to an utter disaster, how can you act like we have been seeing this over and over and it's finally time for a change?!

Dude, its the Underwood haters coming out of the woodworks. We knew they would be in mass this offseason. They been waiting for him to have a bad year for 3+ years now! They are primed up!

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

If Coleman isn't back, I'll be shocked. Let him get the information he needs so he can come back and take his game to another level next season...for us

Yep, absolutely huge win-win for all involved if Coleman gets quality feedback, comes back a better player for his senior year and then joins the ranks of professional Illini players!

 

[LvilleILL]

I expect Coleman back

 

[sacraig]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640784614602973216

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640785269023449111

This is a great thing and he'd be silly if he didn't go this route.

 

[DeeAndDWill]

Don't care how the coach constructs the roster. All HS kids, all portal every year? Don't care. Win.

Don't care about the coach's demeanor. Yelling on the sidelines like a crazy person or giving back massages and being everyone's bestie? Don't care. Win.

Don't care about "culture" or buzz phrases or team obstacle course outings. Don't care. Win.

Don't care about coach worship or coach hate. I don't know these people personally. Don't care. Win.

Build the team however you like. Push people out, bring new people in. Yell until your eyes bleed. Be a player's coach. As long as there's no abuse going on, I couldn't care less about the tactics. Underwood is one of the top 10 paid coaches in CBB. I'm sorry that a single elimination tournament crowns the champion, but winning in March is what matters. There have been 84 programs that have made the S16 since the last time Illinois has. It's time to start winning when it matters most. Regular S16 appearances should be the bare minimum we expect out of a Top 10 paid coach

 

[dwpittman]

Fletcher: "I was there to push people beyond what's expected of them. I believe that is an absolute necessity. Otherwise, we are depriving the world of the next Louis Armstrong, the next Charlie Parker."

Andrew: "But is there a line? You know, maybe you go too far, and you discourage the next Charlie Parker from ever becoming Charlie Parker?"

Fletcher: "No, man, no. Because the next Charlie Parker would never be discouraged."

Lines spoken by a character that was a lunatic !!!!!!!.

 

[ILLFAN67]

No I know, his defense was shaky. I was just reminiscing of what it was like to have someone who could hit a three, haha.

We sorely missed that this year!!!!

 

[Oldskoolkoach]

Speaking of coming back, I want @Indy Illini Fan back. Baby, come back!

 

[Oldskoolkoach]

Speaking of coming back, I want @Indy Illini Fan back. Baby, come back!

Nevermind, he's back...just have been busy today!

 

[illini0440]

BTW Brad spent the entire night in the hospital with Jayden….Trent, Monte, Kofi, Ayo, Andres, TJ, Goode just to name a few all love the guy….there’s a lot of love that goes into these kids too. He’s helped players families out when they have had nothing. Got them help when they needed it. Got family members back on their feet etc.

 

[Joel Goodson]

Most programs have ups and downs. Jim Larrañaga is having a great year. A little know fact: In his 6th season at Miami, he was 14-18. In his 6th to 8th years there, he was 39-51, with three straight losing seasons.

Underwood returned 16.5% of minutes played and 13.9% of scoring from 2021-22. He was 20-13 and made the NCAA tournament.

facts schmacts

 

[PizzaHutParkingLot]

I expect Coleman back

More pump fakes coming soon... /j

 

[Bigtex]

Plummer shot 40% from three on a huge volume and provided much needed floor spacing for Kofi. A guy like that has some leash to be a minus on the defensive end.

agree loved half of Plummer
Epps was our least turnover option guard. He was smart and steady - IMO the highest BBIQ on the team. One of our options was having Shannon bring the ball upcourt against Newman - how did that work out?

 

[Illinirog70]

Like I said I’m all for tough love and I think the kids these days are too soft but it was unacceptable in my view. Maybe coaching involves calling kids these names and berating them like that and Underwood doesn’t want players who can’t handle that. Who knows.

It isn’t tough love to scream in a young players face over and over “ do your. M/F job! Do your M/F job!!” That’s disrespectful. I could see the spittle flying and knew then and there Epps was gone. Why? Certainly not for refusing tough love…but for being abused on national

Ever read the book A season on the Brink?

 

[Sedino]

A guy that stayed 3 years and was getting 14 MPG a game his last year. Very comparable to Jayden Epps... yeah, no. Watch MSU return around 67 % of production next year. Gabe Brown (4 years at MSU), Marcus Bingham (4 years at MSU), Max Christie (1 and done to NBA), Jaden Atkins (2 and probably 3, maybe 4 years at MSU), Malik Hall (4 years at MSU), Tyson Walker and Joey Hauser (transfer reinforcements that finish out college with multiple seasons at MSU), Mady Sisoky (3 and probably 4 years at MSU).

That's what Tom Izzo's Spartan program looks like in the Portal era. Not fans bad mouthing a bunch of Freshmen that they were singing to high heavens a few months before.

Sometimes I think we all forget that they’re just kids playing a game.

 

[ChiefGritty]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640784614602973216

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640785269023449111

The nice thing here is that unlike some versions of this situation, the things NBA scouts are going to tell him he needs to develop are the same things Illinois wants him to develop. If he comes back everyone will be on the same page, unlike a Kofi or Juice Williams situation where a guy's pro future is a hail mary dependent on doing something they aren't capable of and which isn't what makes them great college players.

Going back to school is way, way, WAY overrated from a basketball developmental perspective, but this is one of the rare cases that I think it's the sensible gamble.

 

[Illini in Italy]

I would like an explanation for why Epps is transferring because I'm upset about yet another highly recruited guard, hyped big time by Underwood and his coaching staff, leaving after only a year or so in the program. Epps started every game after Clark bailed, took over the most demanding position in basketball, point guard, as a freshman despite not being a PG before and played it well, provided good outside shooting before hitting a bad slump near season end, was one of only two players (with Shannon) able and/or willing to consistently drive inside for layups. Playing time was not an issue, but perhaps he became increasingly frustrated at having to play out of position, especially when his shooting fell off.
Much has been written on this board at his apparent resentment at being profanely criticized by Underwood more than once during games for all to see and that his attitude gradually soured. Most players today aren't going to endure for long getting reamed out publicly, especially if they feel they aren't being appreciated for taking over a key role that they don't feel comfortable in.
It's not a stretch to believe Epps somewhat saved the season by playing as well as he did at the point because Illinois had no one else able to. Hawkins and Shannon were turnover machines when trying to do so.
Yes, Epps was weak defensively, but he was recruited for his shooting ability, not his defense.
What's most disturbing is that Underwood has now lost five highly recruited guards in the past two seasons (Curbelo, Miller, Podziemski, Clark and Epps). There have been different reasons, and many posters here have said "good riddance" after initially gushing when the kids signed on about how great they would be. But that's a big turnover even in this wild new world of college hoops and it is not a good look for the program.
There was a post a little while ago that Epps didn't listen to the coaches, was lazy and "poison" in the locker room. Hard to believe he would've played such a large role this season if that were true, but if so, why weren't the coaches aware of that reputation during his recruitment? What's more, except for Podziemski who clearly wanted more PT, why were the character/maturity issues of the other four unknown or overlooked by the staff?
Most importantly, should we have confidence that Underwood and his assistants will be able to stop this churn trend and get high school guards who will stay and develop in the program?

Did you read the 47 pages discussing much of this in the previous threads?

And FWIW, of the five transfers you mentioned above, only Podz played up to (and some would say exceeded) his ranking. The rest . . . not so much.

 

[New Creation]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640784614602973216

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640785269023449111

What I like about this is he did not say he is entering into the transfer portal like Kofi did. He’ll get his feed back from the NBA scouts and if he isn’t a top 40 pick he’ll be back to work on what those scouts suggest. This is a good thing for all involved.

 

[Roundball Sage]

Are players who commit to BU (or even an assistant coach) aware of BU's style?

If they aren’t, that’s totally on them. Underwood’s coaching style is quite public and not a mystery.

Would a wise person join a company or firm without researching what the company does... what they stand for... how they do business... how do they treat their employees... what is their reputation for success? And if they do plunge on ahead without learning any of these things beforehand... they deserve to be ‘disappointed’ if it turns out that way... but they also own that result because that’s totally on them for not doing their homework.

Yes, a coach needs to adapt to the times and the mentalities of the current-day player. But he can’t be a slave to that, either. He has right to coach his way and in his own style and in accordance with this own personality.

Any relationship is always a two-way street. As long as you are honest about who and what you are... and treat the other side with respect... you have nothing to be ashamed of and you have the greatest chances of success... from both sides.

Now if a coach or a player is NOT being honest... then there never was a valid ‘contract’ between them. So a divorce is likely inevitable. But not being honest is just asking for trouble and failure.

 

[One Man Fast Break]

BTW Brad spent the entire night in the hospital with Jayden….Trent, Monte, Kofi, Ayo, Andres, TJ, Goode just to name a few all love the guy….there’s a lot of love that goes into these kids too. He’s helped players families out when they have had nothing. Got them help when they needed it. Got family members back on their feet etc.

Kofi couldn't wait to leave Illinois, let's recap, freshman year declared (which was super lol considering how raw his game was), got told no and came back, second year declared (and was so ready to go he started selling all his stuff), got told no, went to the portal and came back after Kentucky chose Tshiebwe. Third year was a first team All American that hinted that Underwood was hindering his pro potential, declared and didn't make the NBA, and is in a Japanese B League.

I don't really see much proof that he is an Underwood man through and through. That's just the Coach he played for.

 

[MetroLeast]

Dude, its the Underwood haters coming out of the woodworks. We knew they would be in mass this offseason. They been waiting for him to have a bad year for 3+ years now! They are primed up!

I'm sure there are few haters on here and some that are simply voicing frustration for a lack of tourney success over the last few years, especially with the pool of talent we've had. There's certainly disappointment with with early exits in the tournament. I don't want to take a away from Big Ten championships, but I'll take consistently being in the second weekend and deep runs every couple years over those any day.

 

[Umit9]

What I like about this is he did not say he is entering into the transfer portal like Kofi did. He’ll get his feed back from the NBA scouts and if he isn’t a top 40 pick he’ll be back to work on what those scouts suggest. This is a good thing for all involved.

No complaints about how it worked out because the Illini got a third year from Kofi and a B1G Title, but Kofi actually entered the portal after withdrawing his name from the Draft if I’m not mistaken.

I would love for Hawkins to come back for one more season.

Go Illini