Conference Realignment

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#801      
A very successful short-term play that never had the remotest hope of not being a long-term albatross. A tradeoff Jim Delany eagerly accepted with eyes wide open.
But didn't the timing of that short-term play help ensure that the B1G was part of the P2 world we now live in? It was a leapfrog move. I fear there's an alternate universe where the SEC is the P1 and everyone else is on the outside looking in. Maybe Delany helped avoid that scenario and we're better off for it, even if Rutgers is a bit of a drag going forward.
 
#802      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
We're keeping bands, right? And tailgates? And the fact that these things will all coalesce in autumn, the King of Seasons? Those are not-insignificant parts of what make CFB great.
Because I can't help myself, we in fact now are winnowing down the national elite at neutral NFL sites in December.

(They might, and should, do 12-through-4 in the playoff at campus sites. We'll see. But the point stands, yes actually the buzz of a leafy autumn college campus deciding which State U stays in the national title picture is as a matter of fact being siphoned away from the sport for a short term cash injection.)

Hate the bowls all you want, you have good reasons, but it contained the college football season as a full story told in 12 Saturdays. Dead. Gone. Permanently.
 
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#803      
Because I can't help myself, we in fact now are winnowing down the national elite at neutral NFL sites in December.

(They might, and should, do 12-through-4 in the playoff at campus sites. We'll see. But the point stands, yes actually the buzz of a leafy autumn college campus deciding which State U stays in the national title picture is as a matter of fact being siphoned away from the sport for a short term cash injection.)

Hate the bowls all you want, you have good reasons, but it contained the college football season as a full story told in 12 Saturdays. Dead. Gone. Permanently.
The car was already in the ditch, with the TV rights bubble playing the role of black ice. Nobody has to like it (and nobody really should), but the only thing left to do at this point is decide if you want to be the guy stripping the catalytic converter or the guy who's by the side of the road with his thumb out.

Just like literally everything else in this damned world in the Year of our Lord 2023.
 
#804      
Because I can't help myself, we in fact now are winnowing down the national elite at neutral NFL sites in December.

(They might, and should, do 12-through-4 in the playoff at campus sites. We'll see. But the point stands, yes actually the buzz of a leafy autumn college campus deciding which State U stays in the national title picture is as a matter of fact being siphoned away from the sport for a short term cash injection.)

Hate the bowls all you want, you have good reasons, but it contained the college football season as a full story told in 12 Saturdays. Dead. Gone. Permanently.
Dead and gone the second nfl players were paid their fair share and it was no longer financially sound for a draftee to play an extra game with no purpose.
 
#805      
Are the powers that be planning to improve officiating (so it is impartial), or will the chosen ones be even more blessed than before?
 
#806      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Dead and gone the second nfl players were paid their fair share and it was no longer financially sound for a draftee to play an extra game with no purpose.
It was never financially sound.

I do wonder where that whole train is going. On the one hand, the same logic would point to guys leaving their teams the second they've put enough on tape to ensure their draft status, there's no limiting principle. On the other hand, NIL can be a mechanism to make playing worth their while up to and including potential bowls.

The thing to remember is, the real force that used to hold this all together was the bone-deep Football Guy ideology of NFL scouts, who would have absolutely held it against a player if he abandoned his brothers in arms before the San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl back in 1998 or whatever.
 
#807      
It was never financially sound.

I do wonder where that whole train is going. On the one hand, the same logic would point to guys leaving their teams the second they've put enough on tape to ensure their draft status, there's no limiting principle. On the other hand, NIL can be a mechanism to make playing worth their while up to and including potential bowls.

The thing to remember is, the real force that used to hold this all together was the bone-deep Football Guy ideology of NFL scouts, who would have absolutely held it against a player if he abandoned his brothers in arms before the San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl back in 1998 or whatever.
Well in the 90s salaries were peanuts compared to today, coupled with the average age of a player dropping quickly.
 
#808      

Illiniaaron

Geneseo, IL
So it ends up putting a random team with UCLA/USC and a random team with ORWA, but 6, 3 team pods fits a nice 9 or even 12 conference game schedule.

Oregon
Washington
Nebraska

USC
UCLA
Iowa

Illinois
Northwestern
Minnesota

OSU
Michigan
MSU

Indiana
Purdue
Wisconsin

Maryland
Rutgers
Penn State
The disdain for Iowa and Nebraska reigns supreme in this forum.
 
#809      
While the "pretend this isn't happening" current is done with its time in the barrel, I nominate the "nostalgia on meth" current to be next.

ANYTHING we love about the sport? Really? Some thoughts about CFB broadly first, and then Illinois specifically:
- I'm sure there's a specific strain of Alabama fan whose sole source of contentment is winning the Iron Bowl, but there are vastly more who are also loving a life that includes a generational rivalry against Clemson, a weirdo blood feud with Texas A&M, a regional pride standoff with Ohio State, and all these other things that would sound like science fiction to a Tide fan in 1970. Wailing about the passing of old rivalries (as is always done, my earliest memory was when the Big XII was formed and killed the Southwest Conference) is easy to do because the things that may take their place are unknowns - we can't compare them because they don't exist yet.
- One of the best things about college football is that the football is subpar. You can get away with things in CFB that will never fly in the NFL because the players and coaches are too good. Maybe you can argue that this is going to make the football in the SEC and the B1G so much better that CFB in those conferences will lose that - but I'm as yet unconvinced on that front.
- We're keeping bands, right? And tailgates? And the fact that these things will all coalesce in autumn, the King of Seasons? Those are not-insignificant parts of what make CFB great.
- Again, good riddance to bowls, in my opinion the dumbest thing going in American sports. Pull back for a minute and think of how much of this sport got sucked into the vortex of inanity that birthed the TaxSlayer Bowl:
"We have to schedule our non-con smartly!"
"Why?"
"So we can get to 6 wins and become bowl-eligible!"
"But why - most bowls don't mean anything?"
"But this is the only way to unlock the super-secret extra practices that are The Way You Build Programs!"

I know the GrittyPilled argument - that this dumb disorganized mess of a sport richly deserves all the meaningless pageantry Meineke Car Care can bestow upon it - and it has some merit. I am, to put it mildly, very open to alternatives.

For Illinois specifically:
- Maybe this is due to my specific age, maybe this is due to the fact that I am unsentimental to a fault, but there's just not a ton there in our specific Big Bucket O' Tradition. Our rival with the highest ceiling for true bad blood just self-immolated. Iowa is loathsome, but they care about Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa State more, and in any event I don't need them on the schedule to enjoy the Brian Ferentz Experience from afar. This is where someone will shout about Michigan or about the Illibuck and buddy, let me tell you we did not need conference expansion for those two schools to not even clock that we exist outside of their game week. We've got some promising coaching-tree/tie-in things cooking with Purdue and Wisconsin - that's great! Your hardest-core Mike White Era Enthusiast would scoff at the fact we are spending energy thinking about those two schools.
- I take the Sam-I-Am approach to seeing Illinois play and win. I would take them against Washington at Soldier Field. I would take them in LA. I would take them in Ann Arbor in an empty Crisler Arena. Football or basketball, I will take the wins here or there, I will take them anywhere, and I will not for a moment have any regret that "this is not your father's Big Ten". You might say we are going to lose more in this bigger and better conference. Maybe. But maybe not. And in any event, I'd rather lose to UCLA in a conference game than lose at home to San Jose State in a failed scheme to collect enough achievement points to make the Beef O'Brady's Bowl.
Bill Murray Applause GIF by MOODMAN

I mean, we've been the B1G14 for a decade, and I've sensed no loss of tradition or the other special sauce that Gritty worries about.

The major difference going forward, in my eyes, is that instead of having two random non-conference opponents every year like Kansas, Virginia, South Florida, North Carolina, Miznoz or Arizona St. (all schools we've played in the past decade), we'll instead be locked into USC, UCLA, Washington and Oregon. And those games will "count" more. While that makes the road to ten wins even more difficult, I actually LIKE having quality opponents on the schedule, and fewer "cupcakes."
 
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#810      
The disdain for Iowa and Nebraska reigns supreme in this forum.

Haha well in this context it wasn't out of disdain. It was basically just Iowa or Minnesota after Nebraska. The concept doesn't have to be regionally based it was just how I created the pods.
 
#811      
One just mathematical note, when Penn State joined the conference as the one new guy, they were immediately playing a full schedule against the historic Big Ten, as still were the historic Big Ten with Penn State mixed in. Everyone had played everyone a ton after a handful of years.

The concentration of that mixture declines every time you add more outsiders to the mix. Maryland joined the league a decade ago and we've played them twice. This will get even more attenuated with the West Coast schools, while also dramatically reducing how much we play the Iowas and Wisconsins of the world.

So the aesthetics of it all and what "feels" traditional is one thing, the realities of the schedule is another.

We will never play something that looks like a Big Ten football schedule again, period. Also outside of the perma-Northwestern rivalry (we hope), we will never play ANYONE on the year-in, year-out basis that was what a "conference" used to mean.

Those are facts, and facts a lot of folks are choosing to not digest, and that's why I had a bee in my bonnet earlier. Embrace it or hate it, but reckon with the reality of it.

I think it still is too early to come to this conclusion. I'll break things down separate with football and basketball for my reasoning:

Basketball:
This actual becomes better than it was as you now just play each other team once. Yes, there will still be some unbalance based on who you play home and away, but that's still far more balanced than it is currently is. And in this case, you could literally say you ran the table, beating every other team in conference. While I do think playing a team twice in a season leads to major rivalries and nastiness, we've been unfortunately trending away from that for a while.

Football:
At 18 teams, this is more difficult to do and while the Rutgers and Maryland adds makes things more difficult with the addition of 4 Pac 10 schools, I actually think there still are possibilities here depending on future expansion. I think much of it hinges on bringing in 3 former Pac10 or B12 schools though. Colorado and Nebraska had a huge rivalry back in the day that I believe would be a big draw for shifting Nebraska to the West bracket. Add on say Arizona and maybe a team like Kansas and you're looking at a breakdown something like this:

West (8):
USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Arizona, Kansas (swing Central?), Nebraska

Central (7):
Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Purdue, Northwestern, Minnesota

East (6):
Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, Michigan State, Maryland, Rutgers

That leaves a spot for 3 more teams- North Carolina fits especially with their natural rivalry with Maryland. And 2 Florida teams as natural rivals in FSU and Miami also seem like they would work. Now that puts 9 in the East, 8 in the West, and 7 in the Central. And this would be where axing Rutgers in favor of say Notre Dame, Stanford, or a Texas school would come into play. And then you place Kansas in West or Central depending on who you add.

As for how scheduling would go, you'd play each team in your division once for 7 games, then have a flex champ week, where you rank each division winner 1 thru 3 for the 3 division winners based on conference record then overall record/CFP ranking. Then do the same for the other 21 teams, ranking them 4 through 24. Your #1 division winner earns a bye into the B10 championship and plays at home against the #4 rank team the final game of the regular season. While the #2 division winner plays at home against the #3 division winner for the other spot in the B10 championship. All other teams play a team from another division of similar ranking with them. The other 4 non-conference games can be against anyone you like.

While it'd take some doing, I don't think a system like this would be all that dissimilar to what we have now. Will it go this way? Probably not, but I wouldn't call rivalries dead quite yet, there's still a way to go in my opinion.
 
#813      

jjv0004

Greenville, SC
This whole thing is a joke. USC, UCLA, Oregon and Washington in the B1G?! Ridiculous. The only thing I like about the move is that Ohio State now has someone who could actually beat them every year in football in USC. I know Michigan has beat them but that's a fluke. Ohio State is way better as evidenced by the way they played Georgia. Will be nice to see Ohio State have another challenger.
 
#814      
Even for those who embrace change and the televised revolution, this is the moment conference realignment has reached saturation, critical mass, and crossed the line into complete stupidity.
When people say 'embrace the change', always implied is ... it's for the better. This wasn't done for the better, now or later. It was done 100% for the money, short-term money at that.
 
#815      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Interesting article on the failure of the PAC12 to secure a lucrative media deal. Sounds like there was also some bad timing involved.

Is the late night college football window just dead now?

Those games don't get fantastic ratings, but not nearly terrible enough to justify being unwilling to bid basically anything for those rights.

I think it's possible that those offers referenced in that article were ON TOP OF the Apple bid. That would harmonize with what happened with the MLS, where linear TV deals were signed, just for way less money because with Apple streaming they were no longer exclusive.


That's the underlying reporting being referenced in that article, fwiw.

The Big 12 and Pac 12 were pitted against each other in this. Having a time zone to yourself being a DISadvantage in that fight really surprises me.
 
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#816      
While the "pretend this isn't happening" current is done with its time in the barrel, I nominate the "nostalgia on meth" current to be next.

ANYTHING we love about the sport? Really? Some thoughts about CFB broadly first, and then Illinois specifically:
- I'm sure there's a specific strain of Alabama fan whose sole source of contentment is winning the Iron Bowl, but there are vastly more who are also loving a life that includes a generational rivalry against Clemson, a weirdo blood feud with Texas A&M, a regional pride standoff with Ohio State, and all these other things that would sound like science fiction to a Tide fan in 1970. Wailing about the passing of old rivalries (as is always done, my earliest memory was when the Big XII was formed and killed the Southwest Conference) is easy to do because the things that may take their place are unknowns - we can't compare them because they don't exist yet.
- One of the best things about college football is that the football is subpar. You can get away with things in CFB that will never fly in the NFL because the players and coaches are too good. Maybe you can argue that this is going to make the football in the SEC and the B1G so much better that CFB in those conferences will lose that - but I'm as yet unconvinced on that front.
- We're keeping bands, right? And tailgates? And the fact that these things will all coalesce in autumn, the King of Seasons? Those are not-insignificant parts of what make CFB great.
- Again, good riddance to bowls, in my opinion the dumbest thing going in American sports. Pull back for a minute and think of how much of this sport got sucked into the vortex of inanity that birthed the TaxSlayer Bowl:
"We have to schedule our non-con smartly!"
"Why?"
"So we can get to 6 wins and become bowl-eligible!"
"But why - most bowls don't mean anything?"
"But this is the only way to unlock the super-secret extra practices that are The Way You Build Programs!"

I know the GrittyPilled argument - that this dumb disorganized mess of a sport richly deserves all the meaningless pageantry Meineke Car Care can bestow upon it - and it has some merit. I am, to put it mildly, very open to alternatives.

For Illinois specifically:
- Maybe this is due to my specific age, maybe this is due to the fact that I am unsentimental to a fault, but there's just not a ton there in our specific Big Bucket O' Tradition. Our rival with the highest ceiling for true bad blood just self-immolated. Iowa is loathsome, but they care about Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa State more, and in any event I don't need them on the schedule to enjoy the Brian Ferentz Experience from afar. This is where someone will shout about Michigan or about the Illibuck and buddy, let me tell you we did not need conference expansion for those two schools to not even clock that we exist outside of their game week. We've got some promising coaching-tree/tie-in things cooking with Purdue and Wisconsin - that's great! Your hardest-core Mike White Era Enthusiast would scoff at the fact we are spending energy thinking about those two schools.
- I take the Sam-I-Am approach to seeing Illinois play and win. I would take them against Washington at Soldier Field. I would take them in LA. I would take them in Ann Arbor in an empty Crisler Arena. Football or basketball, I will take the wins here or there, I will take them anywhere, and I will not for a moment have any regret that "this is not your father's Big Ten". You might say we are going to lose more in this bigger and better conference. Maybe. But maybe not. And in any event, I'd rather lose to UCLA in a conference game than lose at home to San Jose State in a failed scheme to collect enough achievement points to make the Beef O'Brady's Bowl.
Maybe the next generation will adjust to this new paradigm and an Ill/Wash rivalry will one day rise out of the prairie/sound, but I'm not feeling it, or seeing it. There's a special joy I get from beating Iowa, Wisc, Purdue, Mich, or any of our regional neighbors, regardless if that animus is returned in equal measure or not. I absolutely could care less about beating Rutgers or Maryland, beyond the W. And feel the same way about them today as I did when they first joined the conf.
We both lament the proliferation of ridiculous bowls, but it's that same type of short-sighted greed that has led our expansions, from Rutgers to Ore. To me, Rutgers and UCLA in the same conference is as absurd as the Mac&Cheese bowl ... aka Kraft Fight Hunger.
 
#817      

Ransom Stoddard

Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
While the "pretend this isn't happening" current is done with its time in the barrel, I nominate the "nostalgia on meth" current to be next.

ANYTHING we love about the sport? Really? Some thoughts about CFB broadly first, and then Illinois specifically:
- I'm sure there's a specific strain of Alabama fan whose sole source of contentment is winning the Iron Bowl, but there are vastly more who are also loving a life that includes a generational rivalry against Clemson, a weirdo blood feud with Texas A&M, a regional pride standoff with Ohio State, and all these other things that would sound like science fiction to a Tide fan in 1970. Wailing about the passing of old rivalries (as is always done, my earliest memory was when the Big XII was formed and killed the Southwest Conference) is easy to do because the things that may take their place are unknowns - we can't compare them because they don't exist yet.
- One of the best things about college football is that the football is subpar. You can get away with things in CFB that will never fly in the NFL because the players and coaches are too good. Maybe you can argue that this is going to make the football in the SEC and the B1G so much better that CFB in those conferences will lose that - but I'm as yet unconvinced on that front.
- We're keeping bands, right? And tailgates? And the fact that these things will all coalesce in autumn, the King of Seasons? Those are not-insignificant parts of what make CFB great.
- Again, good riddance to bowls, in my opinion the dumbest thing going in American sports. Pull back for a minute and think of how much of this sport got sucked into the vortex of inanity that birthed the TaxSlayer Bowl:
"We have to schedule our non-con smartly!"
"Why?"
"So we can get to 6 wins and become bowl-eligible!"
"But why - most bowls don't mean anything?"
"But this is the only way to unlock the super-secret extra practices that are The Way You Build Programs!"

I know the GrittyPilled argument - that this dumb disorganized mess of a sport richly deserves all the meaningless pageantry Meineke Car Care can bestow upon it - and it has some merit. I am, to put it mildly, very open to alternatives.

For Illinois specifically:
- Maybe this is due to my specific age, maybe this is due to the fact that I am unsentimental to a fault, but there's just not a ton there in our specific Big Bucket O' Tradition. Our rival with the highest ceiling for true bad blood just self-immolated. Iowa is loathsome, but they care about Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa State more, and in any event I don't need them on the schedule to enjoy the Brian Ferentz Experience from afar. This is where someone will shout about Michigan or about the Illibuck and buddy, let me tell you we did not need conference expansion for those two schools to not even clock that we exist outside of their game week. We've got some promising coaching-tree/tie-in things cooking with Purdue and Wisconsin - that's great! Your hardest-core Mike White Era Enthusiast would scoff at the fact we are spending energy thinking about those two schools.
- I take the Sam-I-Am approach to seeing Illinois play and win. I would take them against Washington at Soldier Field. I would take them in LA. I would take them in Ann Arbor in an empty Crisler Arena. Football or basketball, I will take the wins here or there, I will take them anywhere, and I will not for a moment have any regret that "this is not your father's Big Ten". You might say we are going to lose more in this bigger and better conference. Maybe. But maybe not. And in any event, I'd rather lose to UCLA in a conference game than lose at home to San Jose State in a failed scheme to collect enough achievement points to make the Beef O'Brady's Bowl.
I hope you either literally or figuratively dropped the mic after that.
 
#819      
Interesting article on the failure of the PAC12 to secure a lucrative media deal. Sounds like there was also some bad timing involved.

WSJ today
Pac12 Mistake #1July 2021- not expanding
Then, three weeks after officially taking over on July 1, 2021, the college sports landscape began to change when Texas and Oklahoma announced they would leave the Big 12 for the SEC. According to people familiar with the matter, former Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby approached Kliavkoff about combining his eight remaining schools with the Pac-12 to form a 20-team super conference. Kliavkoff was on board, according to a person familiar with his thinking, but the merger failed to clear a subcommittee where Southern California president Carol Folt opposed it, according to people familiar with the matter.

Pac12 Mistake #2 July 2023 - not taking $30M offer
Kliavkoff eventually delivered two options. One was a traditional five-year deal involving traditional networks, with three cable partners and one digital bidder splitting the Pac-12 rights. It would have eventually given schools a disbursement of about $30 million a year—far less than the Big Ten and SEC, but in line with the new Big 12 deal. .....But just days before the July 31 deadline, the ground shifted under Kliavkoff’s feet when Colorado announced it was leaving the Pac-12 for the Big 12. The defection caused the more traditional television deal to fall through.....


Final outcome - new BCS guaranteed Pac12 champion a spot. As part of B10 USC and Oregon will be in tough competition with OSU, Michigan and Penn State for the B10 conference slot or one of the 6 at large slots. I suppose with Pac12 gone maybe there will be 7 at large slots.
 
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#820      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
You say this like it's a bad thing.
Sitting around with some buddies and bunch of junk food on a college football Saturday where the whole national picture changes three times across three channels at around 2:15, then again at 6:45, then again at 10:45, whole seasons are ruined, coaching eras crumble, years of momentum between teams suddenly violently shift directions with a red zone turnover, there isn't anything better in life than that.

That's not everybody, but that's me.

The NFL is fun and all, I root for the Bears, but it's not the same thing.
 
#821      

Mr. Tibbs

southeast DuPage
College Football Saturdays and NFL Sundays are really totally different experiences
there are many people who prefer one WAY over the other, in both directions. I get it. I like the college game with the players' faults and all.
5% of the guys you see on Sat may play pro the next year , the other 95% will be working 8-5 like the rest of us .
I do watch the Bears, but not with the same amount of emotion invested

I hate the fact college football is changing in so many ways , as it has been doing the past 2-3 years already. Its just getting worse
its the natural evolution of things - put 64 people in a room and throw umpteen millions of $100 bills at them, and you wont get a good rational outcome

I dont really think this could have turned out much different than it did - the only thing that is rational is the college admin's desire to get 30 million extra dollars to pay for all the other sports, and football is that golden ticket to fixing the budget hole in athletics.

Right now , we are lucky. Not sure we are in the future unless we start to pull off what Wiscy did the last 20 years
 
#824      
WSJ today
Pac12 Mistake #1July 2021- not expanding
Then, three weeks after officially taking over on July 1, 2021, the college sports landscape began to change when Texas and Oklahoma announced they would leave the Big 12 for the SEC. According to people familiar with the matter, former Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby approached Kliavkoff about combining his eight remaining schools with the Pac-12 to form a 20-team super conference. Kliavkoff was on board, according to a person familiar with his thinking, but the merger failed to clear a subcommittee where Southern California president Carol Folt opposed it, according to people familiar with the matter.

Pac12 Mistake #2 July 2023 - not taking $30M offer
Kliavkoff eventually delivered two options. One was a traditional five-year deal involving traditional networks, with three cable partners and one digital bidder splitting the Pac-12 rights. It would have eventually given schools a disbursement of about $30 million a year—far less than the Big Ten and SEC, but in line with the new Big 12 deal. .....But just days before the July 31 deadline, the ground shifted under Kliavkoff’s feet when Colorado announced it was leaving the Pac-12 for the Big 12. The defection caused the more traditional television deal to fall through.....


Final outcome - new BCS guaranteed Pac12 champion a spot. As part of B10 USC and Oregon will be in tough competition with OSU, Michigan and Penn State for the B10 conference slot or one of the 6 at large slots. I suppose with Pac12 gone maybe there will be 7 at large slots.
An interesting article from 2019. A lot of hubris from the Pac 12 killed them as well. "the Pac-12 is hopeful that within the next five years, digital outlets will join traditional TV networks and create a bidding war for their next rights deal."

 
#825      

Mr. Tibbs

southeast DuPage
there are still a significant amount of college football fans that want to turn to channel x or channel y and see the game

we are probably 15 years away from digital TV being the main way people watch stuff
 
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