Chicago Bears 2024-2025

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#326      
ChiefGritty
ChiefGritty said:
It's far from the only problem, but the last time I was regularly watching a sports team that so obviously hated one another, Skyy Clark was involved.
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Homecoming 2019 said:
And according to Silvy, some players are calling for Bagent...
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How sure are we that Caleb Williams isn't the Skyy Clark in this situation? Does everyone hate him in that building? That would explain kind of a lot.

Because there's no way this:
EyeoftheIllini said:
Bagent gives them best chance to win right now.
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Is really what DJ Moore and Keenan Allen are thinking. Bagent is an extremely limited player and a game manager on his best day.

If there's any truth to players calling for Bagent, it's a message that they don't want to play with Caleb anymore.

EyeoftheIllini said:
I’d assume part of Brown’s duties as passing game coordinator include working with Caleb. So his development and regression have been at least partially because of him.
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Not to fully disagree, plenty of blame to go around, but keep in mind that the Bears also hired Kerry Joseph as QB coach this offseason, who had worked with Waldron in Seattle. When they show Caleb on the sidelines it's always been Waldron and Joseph talking to him.
 
#327      
EyeoftheIllini
How sure are we he is Skyy Clark in this situation? And yes, Bagent is at best a game manager, but that is more than Caleb is right now. Players don’t want to hear about a “development” year, they want to win and be personally effective. That isn’t happening right now. Maybe they don’t like Caleb, but that is conjecture at this point. And if he was effective, that wouldn’t matter. QB doesn’t have to be the most loved guy on team. He needs to be helping the team win — or, at minimum as far as offensive players are concerned, helping people get good numbers.

I could see Allen wanting a QB change and it having nothing to do with Caleb on a personal level. He doesn’t have that many years left, and this year is starting to look like a wasted year for him — no winning and no numbers for him. He’ll be a free agent. He doesn’t want a lost year.

And, yes I know Brown’s main role wasn’t to develop Caleb. If only I had wrote “part of his duties and “partially.” Oh wait, I did. I have no idea how he’ll do. Certainly a change had to be made and he was the most likely candidate.
 
#328      
Emerson Bigguns
If they play Bagent it necessitates a quick hitting type of offense. He doesn't have the arm to make a lot of big plays down the field. This might give the line a fighting chance to keep the QB upright. This begs the question, why not just run that type of offense with Caleb under center. Stop giving him the big play options and maybe he will start to take the easy completions.

Also, if your QB is going to get hit a dozen times anyway, why not throw in a couple designed runs to slow the pass rush?


Something has to inspire these guys to want to compete, because I saw very little "want to" on Sunday.

On firing Waldron:
Not Enough Ukraine GIF by GIPHY News
 
#329      
ChiefGritty
Emerson Bigguns said:
If they play Bagent it necessitates a quick hitting type of offense.
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My biggest take would be that before you even think about benching Caleb for Bagent, the first thing you do is start having Caleb play the offense you would deploy for Bagent. (As you say as well)

The thing that jumped out to me on Sunday was that the things the Patriots were asking Maye to do were SO much simpler.

Waldron was hired on the basis of his role in the emergence of Geno Smith as a quality NFL starter, but one thing about Geno Smith was that he was a 32 year old 9-season NFL veteran with 34 career starts and in his 3rd season as a Seahawk when he broke out under Waldron. Caleb was in high school 4 seasons ago.
 
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#330      
Illinicpa14
HereSoIDontGetFined said:
I'm curious about this. Because is the issue that they just want a change for now, or are they trying to protect Caleb? He was sacked nine times last week. His confidence looks shot, and he needs time to work through it.
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Most players are effectively on 1-2 year deals with Guarantees. Any FA signed thinking they’d be a playoff team.

Don’t think it’s personality- they think bagent can help them win the next 6 weeks.

It’s why the colts went to Flacco to avoid that in the locker room.
 
#331      
Homecoming 2019
ChiefGritty said:
My biggest take would be that before you even think about benching Caleb for Bagent, the first thing you do is start having Caleb play the offense you would deploy for Bagent. (As you say as well)

The thing that jumped out to me on Sunday was that the things the Patriots were asking Maye to do were SO much simpler.

Waldron was hired on the basis of his role in the emergence of Geno Smith as a quality NFL starter, but one thing about Geno Smith was that he was a 32 year old 9-season NFL veteran with 34 career starts and in his 3rd season as a Seahawk when he broke out under Waldron. Caleb was in high school 4 seasons ago.
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Which his impactful role in this has basically been debunked at this point.
 
#333      
Roundball Sage
Emerson Bigguns said:
Something has to inspire these guys to want to compete, because I saw very little "want to" on Sunday.
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With the kind of money these guys make now it is embarassing on Them for not giving a full effort regardless of everything else. They should be ashamed.

There are things that Skyy Clark and Caleb Williams have in common. Start with their SoCal connection.

Clark grew up in LA... and Williams played for THE team in LA... the Trojans. Forget about the Rams and the Chargers and the UCLA Bruins. The Trojans are the LA team. And always will be. The Rams and Chargers literally come and go. The Bruins don’t play near Downtown or by the Sea.

And the thing about this? These SoCal-influenced guys often are kind of Divas. There is a mind set in SoCal that is Hollywood-ish and people of all ages and stations in Life often take on this kind of personality.

And one feature of this has to do with adversity. These type of guys are NOT used to adversity (on the field/court of play). They usually come from big winning programs and are not used to losing or facing challenges without doing a good deal pouting. So they do not handle this well.

Only those closest to the scene know for sure what’s going with Caleb. But from a distance he seems to be exhibiting the kind of diva behavior that I described above. And Illini roundball fans already know about Clark.

Williams was not going to save the Bears. They are too messed up and dysfunctional for that. He may yet find a way to succeed in Chicago but this looks like a long shot right now. He is in the wrong place for the type of guy he seems to be. Even with the right coach in place this just might be wrong mix of player and franchise.

That LA-Vibe just don’t play in the City that used to house The Stockyards and Steel Mills.
 
#335      
ChiefGritty
Homecoming 2019 said:
Well every Seahawks fan told us it was Canales, since the offense struggled when he left for the Bucs and revived Baker Mayfields career.
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Seattle's offense seems to have taken another step back without Waldron. And as my fantasy team can attest, Baker Mayfield continues to thrive without Canales, who has been powerless to fix Bryce Young. We oversimplify these things.

I don't know that you really need to take a strong position on how much "credit" Waldron deserves for the unlikely success of Geno Smith in 2022 to draw the parallels, or lack thereof, between Smith and Williams' situations. And I think that does bear out in how complicated and demanding the schemes have been.

And it's not just Waldron really. From Ryan Poles on down there has been an assumption from well before draft day that Caleb Williams was going to be playing QB at the elite NFL level THIS season, and the team was constructed to get the maximum benefit from that. That assumption has catastrophically crashed into the Wall of Reality.

Easier said than done, but the Bears just have to dedicate themselves to the lower-level task of getting a rookie QB in some sort of rhythm.
 
#336      
Second place is 1st loser
Homecoming 2019 said:
And according to Silvy, some players are calling for Bagent... I'm guessing the same players that back Nate Davis and Tyrique Stevenson.
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I'm guessing that there's more meat to the bones of this comment. Nobody would want the kids neck, but if his confidence is shot and he has shell shock from the constant barrage.... some players might find it helpful to sit out for a bit and take a breath. That would be a completely reasonable thought process.

Now, that's not to say that some players wouldn't mind seeing the arrogance kicked out of him, but that's far from the insinuation that there's a mutiny in favor of Bageant. Williams was improving week over week right up until their bye. Something happened between London and the first three quarters versus Washington.
 
#338      
illiniwil
but i do think having Caleb watch for a game or two wouldn't be a bad idea.
he's our future but maybe not our present.
 
#339      
Grandpa
Bagent game managed himself to 159 passing touchdowns in college.

He was hitting tight windows in pre season.

Perfect deep ball that nestled into the receiver's hands, over the outstretched hand of a defender who was tight against the receiver in preseason.

The guys talking about a change were watching.

IMHO they let Williams get beat up at the end of out of reach games because they know there would immediately be a QB controversy if we saw Bagent. They don't have to dink short passes with Bagent because of his arm, but they probably do because of the lack of protection. As I said IMHO
 
#340      
Second place is 1st loser
Grandpa said:
Bagent game managed himself to 159 passing touchdowns in college.

He was hitting tight windows in pre season.

Perfect deep ball that nestled into the receiver's hands, over the outstretched hand of a defender who was tight against the receiver in preseason.

The guys talking about a change were watching.

IMHO they let Williams get beat up at the end of out of reach games because they know there would immediately be a QB controversy if we saw Bagent. They don't have to dink short passes with Bagent because of his arm, but they probably do because of the lack of protection. As I said IMHO
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1)159 TD's is great, but it came against sub par competition(comparatively)

2)He was playing against backups and sometimes third stringers in the preseason.

3)He's got a below average arm with regards the deep balls and see #2 with regards to the competition.

4)There will be no QB controversy. Poles would have to fire himself to not be 100% dedicated with his rookie QB for every second of this season. You don't sit your future down halfway through his rookie year if you're dedicated to completing a rebuild properly.... UNLESS it's being deemed that he's a deer in headlights and he's seeing ghosts because of the consistent pass pressure and pocket collapse.

There's a lot of blame to go around, which includes your receivers not creating separation. The new play caller is going to have to stay committed to the quick passing game. It's not "fun" or exciting, but if it works...so what. They need offensive linemen to consider anything different.
 
#341      
champaignchris
ChiefGritty said:
From Ryan Poles on down there has been an assumption from well before draft day that Caleb Williams was going to be playing QB at the elite NFL level THIS season, and the team was constructed to get the maximum benefit from that. That assumption has catastrophically crashed into the Wall of Reality.
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I’ve been saying for months that the expectations set for Williams this year - by the team, by the fans, by the media, everyone - were so far out of line that it’s been beyond unfair to him.

People were legitimately predicting that he’d throw for 4,000 yards this year?!?!

It’s like CJ Stroud had the greatest season any rookie qb has ever had, and suddenly everybody thinks that rookie qbs don’t generally suck.
 
#342      
Roundball Sage
champaignchris said:
It’s like CJ Stroud had the greatest season any rookie qb has ever had, and suddenly everybody thinks that rookie qbs don’t generally suck.
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It wasn't all that long ago that NFL franchises NEVER let a rookie QB anywhere be a starter. Had to sit for a few years behind a veteran.

That of course wouldn't work any more these days. But Williams is an example of a rookie who might benefit from sitting a while before just handing him the keys to the Big Family Car.

Bears were desperate to try to change Their sorry narrative. But all they'll done is just confirm another narrative that They don't know what they're doing.
 
#343      
Grandpa
Peyton Manning rookie year on phone with his Dad, "Dad, nobody is open!"
Archie, "Yes they are. Welcome to the NFL."
I'm quoting Peyton.

Rookie QBs don't normally fare well. Especially if they want the receiver to be open and stand there waiting for it to happen instead of leading the receiver away from wherever the defender is. Freakin Packers have done it so well. To emulate them the Bears would first need to have a competent QB to sit behind and learn. Second they would need to have someone competent to pick it up.
 
#344      
Roundball Sage
Grandpa said:
Rookie QBs don't normally fare well... Freakin Packers have done it so well. To emulate them the Bears would first need to have a competent QB to sit behind and learn. Second they would need to have someone competent to pick it up.
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Rookie QBs are too often rushed on to the field. Why?

Only one team gets to win the Super Bowl every year. That means, all the other teams – didn’t. (And plenty of those teams are not even close to doing so.)

SO... both fans and Management of those teams are impatient and want to go for the Quick Fix. Something quick-and-easy to magically turn their franchise into contenders and make the losing go away and give the fans something to quiet them down. (Also, Management gets to look like they are doing something to fix things.) So they draft the next hot QB and expect magic. But none of this works. Even the best and hottest young signal-caller isn’t going to get their team into the Big Game all by himself.

So the Bears now have just tried this. But lots of other teams have done the same thing with similar results. And this will keep on happening for the same reasons. Management and many pundits seem to like to forget there are 11 guys on the field. No one position alone is ever going to be a savior.

As for the Packers... they have knowledgable fans who have long tasted success and who generally don't mind for a young guy to develop. A very sensible approach. Patient.

Bear fans are knowledgeable but success has been very hard to come by now for a couple generations. Have to go all the way back to the 1940s to find Bear teams that were consistent winners. Bear fans are tired of waiting for something good.
 
#345      
Grandpa
Roundball Sage said:
As for the Packers... they have knowledgeable fans who have long tasted success and who generally don't mind for a young guy to develop. A very sensible approach. Patient.

Bear fans are knowledgeable but success has been very hard to come by now for a couple generations. Have to go all the way back to the 1940s to find Bear teams that were consistent winners. Bear fans are tired of waiting for something good.
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Plus the Packers aren't hurting for a QB while the new guy develops. They are developing behind an all-pro QB. Bears new QB is waiting behind a bad QB.
 
#346      
IlliniFaninHoosierLand
The new offensive coordinator Thomas Brown was the offensive coordinator in Carolina last season. While that may be seen as a negative, he didn't actually have play calling duties until Frank Reich ceded them to him last season. If nothing else, Brown should have better offensive weapons to work with than he did in Carolina.
 
#349      
RockfordIllini
ChiefGritty said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1856376203961090461

I never know quite how much to buy into the football analytics nerd world, but man this feels like it hits on a lot of the issues, and is all from before the season started.
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It really begs the question what they saw in Waldron/why they couldn’t do better. Most hyped rookie QB since Andrew Luck probably? With those receivers? Had to be about as attractive an OC position as there was.

Of course, if they had hired a competent OC and Williams had success and throws for 4K yards or whatever, that OC is immediately hired as a head coach and you have to start over anyways.

This has been going on for years, but how can they be so bad at this?
 
#350      
ChiefGritty
RockfordIllini said:
It really begs the question what they saw in Waldron/why they couldn’t do better. Most hyped rookie QB since Andrew Luck probably? With those receivers? Had to be about as attractive an OC position as there was.
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Absolutely, and they interviewed all of the guys that wound up getting OC jobs elsewhere, Liam Coen, Greg Roman, famously Kliff Kingsbury.

And Waldron was thought to be a good hire at the time, his resume was as good as those other guys.

It was Matt Eberflus' decision. The total lack of cohesion of the team lands at his doorstep.
 
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