Rutgers 82, Illinois 73 Postgame

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#526      
aaeismacgychel
NarrowJ said:
It's crazy to me that I have read almost 20 pages of post game thread and this is the first comment I've seen that really placed focus on how poor the outside shooting has been. This team was right around 35-36% from 3 the first 15 games of the season.

The last 9 games, we have only played ONE ranked team. So it isnt as if the competition/schedule just got harder. In fact, quite the opposite.

I think we've shot 22% from 3 as a team over those 9 games. I would be worried if we were hovering around 30% let alone 22%.

Again, we shot 35% or so the first 15 games which includes 33% vs Alabama, 49% vs Arkansas, at least hit over 30% vs Wisconsin and Missouri, then 55% vs Oregon so it isnt as if we put up that number against all of the cupcakes.

I do see some rushed 3s and a few bad 3s here and there, but nothing that would explain 22%.

It's bizarre.
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So this is where I'm at. I do see a lot of comments about "chucking" threes, but honestly, I actually think the quality of our threes has been relatively good. Sure, we've taken our fair share of rushed/bad shots, but I wouldn't call our average or overall shot quality from three bad at all this year. In fact, if anything, I think for the most part we have gotten our shooters open in space with good looks. We could always get some more inside out action to get the shots a bit more in rhythm, but the shots our guys are taking for the most part really aren't all that tough looks. I mean compare the 3pt looks we've gotten this year to 2023, those were baaaaaaaad shots. So I don't think it's a "chucking" threes issue as much as it is a we're just not making shots college shooters should be making problem. So if anything, it's a shooting threes problem.

As to the why this is happening to the entire team, where every upperclassman is having the worst shooting year of their career by a huge margin, it is bizarre. Mental for sure is part of it, but it could also be the increase in defensive effort and physical play necessary in the B10 is showing on players who just weren't prepared for that. We're front-rimming a very high percentage of our open threes and that usually points to tiring.

I mean, this is the falloff these players have seen this year:
Ben: 42.1% --> 34.8%
Jake: 40.6% --> 31.8%
Kylan: 38.2% --> 23.4%
Tre: 28.6% --> 23.8%

And it's not as though these players are getting worse quality shots. Most of the looks they get are decent. It is strange. I don't disagree that based on how poorly we're shooting the ball from 3, we need to focus more inside, but we also weren't really built to have the near 40% shooters we brought in passing up open threes. It's crazy when you don't have a single efficient player on your team from behind the arc.
 
#527      
OB positive
NarrowJ said:
It's crazy to me that I have read almost 20 pages of post game thread and this is the first comment I've seen that really placed focus on how poor the outside shooting has been. This team was right around 35-36% from 3 the first 15 games of the season.

The last 9 games, we have only played ONE ranked team. So it isnt as if the competition/schedule just got harder. In fact, quite the opposite.

I think we've shot 22% from 3 as a team over those 9 games. I would be worried if we were hovering around 30% let alone 22%.

Again, we shot 35% or so the first 15 games which includes 33% vs Alabama, 49% vs Arkansas, at least hit over 30% vs Wisconsin and Missouri, then 55% vs Oregon so it isnt as if we put up that number against all of the cupcakes.

I do see some rushed 3s and a few bad 3s here and there, but nothing that would explain 22%.

It's bizarre.
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It has to be frustrating for Brad and the rest of the staff to watch them drain three after three in practice at a high rate and then during games they are awful. Gonna have to let go on the empphasis on three point offense to straighten out the rest of the season.
 
#528      
BalloonsTheElephant
BashCtIllini said:
Last year we were able to succeed because we had an All American in Terrence Shannon that couldn't be stopped driving to the basket. I looked at game by game contributions last year and Shannon carried the team, especially in the post season. He was like 30% of our scoring in the post season.

When you had a guy that instilled fear in opponents, that opened up clean looks on kickouts. We had 4 guys shooting better from 3 than our best shooter this year. And I keep looking at the significant drop in shooting from Boswell and say, it's the offense. When you have an AA, any offense can work. When you don't have the talent advantage, you need your coach to put you in a position to succeed.

What we're seeing now is no one with the ability to get to the basket. Well not get there and also make the damn layup. No one commands that fear from the defense, so the open looks from 3 aren't there. Our 3pt shooting is terrible, so people are saying take 2s instead. How? We don't run any plays. We don't set screens to get people free. We don't have great athletes that can beat their man one on one. So it's a little more difficult than just saying stop taking 3s. I mean hey, we're down from 40 a game to 30. Still not making any though.

I also don't like the youth complaint. That was by design. We could have Jr Rodgers, Sr Goode, Soph Hansberry, Sr Dainja, heck even Melendez is playing fairly well. With them at least you have a core, you have leadership. You have someone to teach the new guys the program. Then you bring in guys like Morez, KJ, Riley, supplement with a transfer or 2 like Boswell, and now you've got yourself a team.

This team will be much better next year, IF, and it's a very big if, they all return. With such youth hurdles are expected. As Al McGuire said, the best thing about fr is they become soph, but will they?
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Not to mention that TJ was only here because Michigan wouldn't bend the rules to admit him.
 
#529      
OrangeBlue98
OB positive said:
It has to be frustrating for Brad and the rest of the staff to watch them drain three after three in practice at a high rate and then during games they are awful. Gonna have to let go on the empphasis on three point offense to straighten out the rest of the season.
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Couldn't agree more with this post.

The overreliance on the 3 reminds me of some degree to when my grandparents built and tried to sell a house about 30 years ago. They built the house, did all of the open houses, etc. They were not getting any buyers. My parents and I ( I was in college then, so had enough business sense to chime in) kept telling them they needed to lower the price. They kept insisting that the appraised value was this, the realtor was telling them the house was great, that other houses closer to town were selling for that amount, etc. We just kept asking them "But are any of those things helping you get an offer at the price you're asking?"

Sometimes, you have to let go of the things that are keeping you from seeing reality. In this case, the team is not shooting well at all in games from 3 point range. I don't care if they are shooting like Steph Curry or Caitlin Clark in practice - they aren't doing it in games. They have to adjust.
 
#530      
Chukwuwumba
OB positive said:
It has to be frustrating for Brad and the rest of the staff to watch them drain three after three in practice at a high rate and then during games they are awful. Gonna have to let go on the empphasis on three point offense to straighten out the rest of the season.
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In game, every single pass to the 3 pt shooter is off the mark. Reach down low, move to the left, move the right, low velocity. Nothing on target where the shooter can shoot in rhythm. The best passes are from inside the paint to the outside and they have hit on those.
 
#531      
Get yourself a new map
aaeismacgychel said:
So this is where I'm at. I do see a lot of comments about "chucking" threes, but honestly, I actually think the quality of our threes has been relatively good. Sure, we've taken our fair share of rushed/bad shots, but I wouldn't call our average or overall shot quality from three bad at all this year. In fact, if anything, I think for the most part we have gotten our shooters open in space with good looks. We could always get some more inside out action to get the shots a bit more in rhythm, but the shots our guys are taking for the most part really aren't all that tough looks. I mean compare the 3pt looks we've gotten this year to 2023, those were baaaaaaaad shots. So I don't think it's a "chucking" threes issue as much as it is a we're just not making shots college shooters should be making problem. So if anything, it's a shooting threes problem.

As to the why this is happening to the entire team, where every upperclassman is having the worst shooting year of their career by a huge margin, it is bizarre. Mental for sure is part of it, but it could also be the increase in defensive effort and physical play necessary in the B10 is showing on players who just weren't prepared for that. We're front-rimming a very high percentage of our open threes and that usually points to tiring.

I mean, this is the falloff these players have seen this year:
Ben: 42.1% --> 34.8%
Jake: 40.6% --> 31.8%
Kylan: 38.2% --> 23.4%
Tre: 28.6% --> 23.8%

And it's not as though these players are getting worse quality shots. Most of the looks they get are decent. It is strange. I don't disagree that based on how poorly we're shooting the ball from 3, we need to focus more inside, but we also weren't really built to have the near 40% shooters we brought in passing up open threes. It's crazy when you don't have a single efficient player on your team from behind the arc.
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It’s maddening. Makes me feel like we need to change something up on the operational side. Lift schedule, game day routine, pre-game meal, deflate our game balls by 0.1 lb/sq-in, do SOMETHING. And I truly am wondering - what is policy for mandatory eye exams? I had friends on the baseball team who told me they’d never been to the eye doctor; I was floored by that.
 
#532      
Illini2010-11
Indy Illini Fan said:
Fact of the matter is this … I come into dang near every game thread and thread on this board to express my thoughts and opinions … That is what a message board is for … There is nothing on here I wouldn’t discuss with Brad … There is no personal beef between me and Brad … Never has been … I sometimes question his decisions and that’s just the way it is when you’re a coach …

I am not a booster … I am not Josh Whitman … I am simply someone who cares about Illinois athletics and wants to see sustained success and when we aren’t doing that, I call it out …

If you don’t agree or simply don’t like me which you have shown to be the case … Find the ignore button and use it … That way you don’t have to listen to me just like you say Brad shouldn’t …

Have a great day … 👍🏻
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To most individuals it is clear as day that you have no personal beef. If you did, you would have a different profile picture.

It is fair to question the coaching staff. The team has certainly been great the last few years, but if the team cannot get to the second weekend this year, then it is completely reasonable to demand changes to the coaching staff. The teams the last few years have been way too good to only make the second weekend of the tournament once. To be clear, I love hoisting the BTT titles and the regular season title, but I think we should expect more at the University of Illinois when it comes to tournament performance. Since attending the university in 2006, the team has made the second weekend exactly once (last year). That is unacceptable to me.

I love the direction of the program since the end of the Groce regime, but the coaching staff is getting paid way too much to consistently fizzle out in the tourney.
 
#533      
OrangeBlue98
Maybe we are kind of spoiled by what Bielema has been doing with the football program, but the overall march to real sustainability (I get it - we aren't there yet and 2025 will tell us a LOT about the football program) that Bielema seems to be generating is what I think a lot of us were hoping with Underwood and the basketball program, but we haven't seen it quite yet when it comes to NCAA tournament performances.

I've said this before, but I firmly believe the overall expectation for the Illinois basketball program is to be a regular contender (note I didn't say win every year) for Big Ten championships and to be a consistent, sustainable threat to make the second weekend of the NCAA tournament. The last four seasons have been awfully inconsistent, and I get that we've also seen that with the football program. But it seems to me like Bielema is building something that's going to be sustainable and consistent. I don't have that feeling with the basketball program just yet.

Years like last year are great, and I'd love it if that type of season was a lot closer to the floor of the program than the ceiling. But I don't think we're there yet, and it's going to take more consistency with player retention and better ability to orchestrate a real Plan B in-game and game-to-game for me to think we're getting closer.
 
#535      
Deep
We've all seen the play of late....
We've all read the opinions about the coaching staff and what needs to be changed.....

I have the following questions for those in the know......
1. Is there some sort of internal strife with this team?
2. What is going on with Tre White?
3. Is this season salvageable or his this team pretty much packed it in?
 
#536      
CoachHooleyHoo
Went back to re-watch the game and I'm even more furious than I was last night. The first 15 minutes of the first half should cause the offensive coordinator to lose his job. They ran a grand total of 2 plays to get touches inside and on both of those plays MJ easily scored. There was also a drive by Tomi that got a bucket for KJ. Other than that, it was all 5 out perimeter picks and they weren't able to penetrate. How did this coaching staff not know that we had an advantage down low on the block? The last 5 minutes they made a run b/c Ivisic posted up, Riley drove down the lane twice and Boswell drove the lane for an easy bucket. The BU presser is even worse after rewatching it. I know it's on the players to execute, but it sure doesn't feel like this coaching staff is putting the guys in position to be successful.
 
#537      
FromTheLogo
I love analytics, but maybe the staff loves them a bit tooooo much. For instance...

Scenario 1: Opponent Player A shoots 22% from 3 on the season. He's only attempted 30 on the season. So, scouting report: Dare him to shoot, literally back up, waaayyyy off him. BUT, is he shooting 22% on the equivalent of an uncontested practice shot? I know 'contested' shots are recorded, but who determines what a 'contested' shot really is?

Scenario 2: We are a top rebounding team. Brad says: Shoot lots of 3's (Pts/Poss reasoning) and go get the misses. So, scouting report: We rebound better than our opponents, let's chuck up 3's. BUT, is this a case of more opportunities to get rebounds due to shooting 22% from 3?

These are low hanging fruit examples, and maybe not the best ones, but likely there are many others. Players/people are dynamic. Sickness, injury, pressure, hustle, heart, tenacity, "grit" etc. are hard to measure.
 
#539      
Get yourself a new map
CoachHooleyHoo said:
Went back to re-watch the game and I'm even more furious than I was last night. The first 15 minutes of the first half should cause the offensive coordinator to lose his job. They ran a grand total of 2 plays to get touches inside and on both of those plays MJ easily scored. There was also a drive by Tomi that got a bucket for KJ. Other than that, it was all 5 out perimeter picks and they weren't able to penetrate. How did this coaching staff not know that we had an advantage down low on the block? The last 5 minutes they made a run b/c Ivisic posted up, Riley drove down the lane twice and Boswell drove the lane for an easy bucket. The BU presser is even worse after rewatching it. I know it's on the players to execute, but it sure doesn't feel like this coaching staff is putting the guys in position to be successful.
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Our primary offense does intend for KJ to get into the lane but he can no longer dribble so the ball just stays on the perimeter.
After KJ committed that horrible foul on Williams, the broadcast showed KJ with his hands on his hips. His bottom knuckle on both his left thumb and index finger were totally undefined. I don’t know how that’s going to heal because it’s already been a month and it’s only gotten worse.
 
#540      
My2Cents
Indy...In your opinion has Brad changed his coaching style since the NIL started? Did JW get on him about his yelling and sideline outburst? I am only asking because it sure seems Brad has been a lot more laid back....and his players reflect that on the court.
 
#541      
Indy Illini Fan
CoachHooleyHoo said:
Went back to re-watch the game and I'm even more furious than I was last night. The first 15 minutes of the first half should cause the offensive coordinator to lose his job. They ran a grand total of 2 plays to get touches inside and on both of those plays MJ easily scored. There was also a drive by Tomi that got a bucket for KJ. Other than that, it was all 5 out perimeter picks and they weren't able to penetrate. How did this coaching staff not know that we had an advantage down low on the block? The last 5 minutes they made a run b/c Ivisic posted up, Riley drove down the lane twice and Boswell drove the lane for an easy bucket. The BU presser is even worse after rewatching it. I know it's on the players to execute, but it sure doesn't feel like this coaching staff is putting the guys in position to be successful.
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This is what’s bothering me the most …

How do we go from the ending of the Ohio State game where we figured out how we needed to play and driving the ball to win to immediately going back to chucking 3s again !!!!
 
#542      
Battle89
BashCtIllini said:
When you had a guy that instilled fear in opponents, that opened up clean looks on kickouts. We had 4 guys shooting better from 3 than our best shooter this year. And I keep looking at the significant drop in shooting from Boswell and say, it's the offense. When you have an AA, any offense can work. When you don't have the talent advantage, you need your coach to put you in a position to succeed.
Click to expand...
Gay React GIF by Alayna Joy
 
#543      
NarrowJ
aaeismacgychel said:
So this is where I'm at. I do see a lot of comments about "chucking" threes, but honestly, I actually think the quality of our threes has been relatively good. Sure, we've taken our fair share of rushed/bad shots, but I wouldn't call our average or overall shot quality from three bad at all this year. In fact, if anything, I think for the most part we have gotten our shooters open in space with good looks. We could always get some more inside out action to get the shots a bit more in rhythm, but the shots our guys are taking for the most part really aren't all that tough looks. I mean compare the 3pt looks we've gotten this year to 2023, those were baaaaaaaad shots. So I don't think it's a "chucking" threes issue as much as it is a we're just not making shots college shooters should be making problem. So if anything, it's a shooting threes problem.

As to the why this is happening to the entire team, where every upperclassman is having the worst shooting year of their career by a huge margin, it is bizarre. Mental for sure is part of it, but it could also be the increase in defensive effort and physical play necessary in the B10 is showing on players who just weren't prepared for that. We're front-rimming a very high percentage of our open threes and that usually points to tiring.

I mean, this is the falloff these players have seen this year:
Ben: 42.1% --> 34.8%
Jake: 40.6% --> 31.8%
Kylan: 38.2% --> 23.4%
Tre: 28.6% --> 23.8%

And it's not as though these players are getting worse quality shots. Most of the looks they get are decent. It is strange. I don't disagree that based on how poorly we're shooting the ball from 3, we need to focus more inside, but we also weren't really built to have the near 40% shooters we brought in passing up open threes. It's crazy when you don't have a single efficient player on your team from behind the arc.
Click to expand...

Yes, at this point it is completely baffling. Outside of the 4 guys you listed:

KJ (4-28 for 14% since IU game)
Ivisic (3-16 for 18% since IU game)
DGL who shot 40% from 3 in a league with future NBA players had been hitting a few but is 0-6 last couple games as well

At this point I'm unsure why it isn't being talked about more than what is has been.
 
#545      
aaeismacgychel
Get yourself a new map said:
It’s maddening. Makes me feel like we need to change something up on the operational side. Lift schedule, game day routine, pre-game meal, deflate our game balls by 0.1 lb/sq-in, do SOMETHING. And I truly am wondering - what is policy for mandatory eye exams? I had friends on the baseball team who told me they’d never been to the eye doctor; I was floored by that.
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I do think gameday routine may be part of it or possibly how we're practicing these shots. What worries me though is that it looks like the cold spell has has resulted in multiple players making mechanical adjustments to their shot. Ben and Will's shooting motions for example are much less fluid than earlier in the year. And that’s never a good sign. But I'm with you, this is a young team, and players tend to be superstitious , maybe change something up in the routine just so they can focus on something other than their shot. I also don't know how much we have them shoot threes when they're tiring in practice, but maybe a change there as well. Gotta try something at this point as it's really not a shot quality problem based on what I'm seeing
 
#549      
Toews
There's two ways to look at this season for me. There's the fact that if this was before this NIL transfer portal era we would expect a season after last year (losing almost everyone from a very old team) to be a big step down. It looked like Brad had kind of reloaded and built a team that may somehow even be better, but now It's clear he likely didn't. I still think this team has a higher ceiling than last years but they just don't have the consistency. Still, this would be a year we'd probably take usually after a good run the year before and losing almost everyone. The other way to look at it is he whiffed on a lot of his transfers and built a team around three point shooting with players who forgot how to shoot, and it's unclear how next years team even looks and if we can really build upon a lot from this year.
 
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