Why would we want to play a mediocre zone?
It’s hard to fathom guys at this level who’ve been playing basketball their entire lives couldn’t learn how to play even a mediocre zone in a couple of practices.
Pregame: Illinois vs Michigan State, Saturday, February 15th, 7:00pm CT, FOX
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sacraig
- The desert
It plays to a very particular Loyalty fetish.
We should do hockey style line changes where one lineup is our man to man lineup and the other is our zone lineup 
sacraig
- The desert
We should do hockey style line changes where one lineup is our man to man lineup and the other is our zone lineup
JJE
- North Port, Florida
Boo this man. You know what I meant!
I don’t want them to play zone, but they should know how to if they need to throw a wrinkle against an offense.
Man versus Zone Defense
I think it is correct to say that no collegiate-level (and probably HS) team plays pure man-to-man, and nor do they play pure zone. Ever.
Instead, defenses incorporate a mix of both man-to-man and zone principles.
For example, in a predominantly man-to-man defense, there is always a help defense component, particularly help defender movement from the weakside (side away from the ball) to provide defensive help. This is not a pure man-to-man defense any longer, and instead incorporates an element of zone defense (“helpside” is by definition a zone on the floor, and is not targeted at a specific offensive player). This is always called simply “man” defense though, because each defender has one opponent as the primary – but not sole – person to guard.
Teaching an on-ball defender to force all dribble penetration towards the baseline and to deny dribble penetration into the middle rests on teaching help defenders to help always on the baseline side and never the middle. That philosophy can be flipped: all dribble penetration is forced middle, and all help defense is in the middle.
Another example of hybrid man/zone ideas is in screen defense. Pure man-to-man asks the on-ball defender to fight through screens with no help. Since that often doesn’t work, instead the screen defender gets involved in helping defend the ball handler: (i) switch the screen; (ii) ice the screen, in which the on-ball defender cuts off ball handler from using the screen, and together with the help of the screen defender, keep the ball handler pinned along the sideline; (iii) hedge the screen, in which the screen defender hedges out from the screen to stop advance of the ball until the on-ball defender can clear the screen and re-pick up the ball; (iv) trap (double team) the ball handler as he goes over the screen feathering the ball handler wide of the screen and towards the sideline, trapping the ball by the combination of the screen and ball defenders, and so on. When the screener rolls, usually a third defender is assigned according to a rule set by the coach. There are a couple of other screen-defense strategies, but the point is: once again, post-1960 man defense incorporates zone principles.
What about zones? Mirror arguments: the base on-ball defending skills are identical to man defense skills. Close out on jump shooters (2s or 3s) properly, which is hard work. Front, or three-quarter or whatever on offensive post players, with help from above or laterally. Defend dribble-drive positioning is exactly like in man. Setting up for charges is the same. The only difference is that defenders are not assigned, solely, to one opponent. And that “only difference” requires outstanding talk on defense, more than for man-to-man.
Out of Bounds Plays, Press-Break, Multiple Defenses
High school teams run baseline and sideline out of bounds plays. They sometimes run both a man defense and some sort of zone, such as a matchup 2-3. HS teams won’t be great at doing these things – timing and spacing will frequently be off – but they nonetheless have time to learn, and then use in games, a couple of basic defenses and a sideline out of bounds ‘play’ (strategy, really), and a couple of baseline out of bounds plays. They also learn to use, in games, some form of press-break.
In one season, a D1 team has time to learn these things, if their coaching staff thinks these tactics are sufficiently important. But it may be that other basketball stuff needs more time in the coaches’ view: (i) film viewing; (ii) learning and then practicing against an upcoming opponent’s offense and defense; (iii) individual skill development such as shooting and ball handling; (iv) physical training).
Turnovers
There are two kinds of turnovers: dead-ball, and live-ball. The latter are killers. Our guards (K&K) must stop casually turning the ball over for layups at the other end. Coach Underwood needs to wake up and stop mumbling about high-risk, high-gain passes. The BS turnovers, casual, lazy, pick-pocketed ones are not in any way shape or form high-risk, high-gain. They must be eliminated, or we’re going to lose a game we cannot lose.
I think it is correct to say that no collegiate-level (and probably HS) team plays pure man-to-man, and nor do they play pure zone. Ever.
Instead, defenses incorporate a mix of both man-to-man and zone principles.
For example, in a predominantly man-to-man defense, there is always a help defense component, particularly help defender movement from the weakside (side away from the ball) to provide defensive help. This is not a pure man-to-man defense any longer, and instead incorporates an element of zone defense (“helpside” is by definition a zone on the floor, and is not targeted at a specific offensive player). This is always called simply “man” defense though, because each defender has one opponent as the primary – but not sole – person to guard.
Teaching an on-ball defender to force all dribble penetration towards the baseline and to deny dribble penetration into the middle rests on teaching help defenders to help always on the baseline side and never the middle. That philosophy can be flipped: all dribble penetration is forced middle, and all help defense is in the middle.
Another example of hybrid man/zone ideas is in screen defense. Pure man-to-man asks the on-ball defender to fight through screens with no help. Since that often doesn’t work, instead the screen defender gets involved in helping defend the ball handler: (i) switch the screen; (ii) ice the screen, in which the on-ball defender cuts off ball handler from using the screen, and together with the help of the screen defender, keep the ball handler pinned along the sideline; (iii) hedge the screen, in which the screen defender hedges out from the screen to stop advance of the ball until the on-ball defender can clear the screen and re-pick up the ball; (iv) trap (double team) the ball handler as he goes over the screen feathering the ball handler wide of the screen and towards the sideline, trapping the ball by the combination of the screen and ball defenders, and so on. When the screener rolls, usually a third defender is assigned according to a rule set by the coach. There are a couple of other screen-defense strategies, but the point is: once again, post-1960 man defense incorporates zone principles.
What about zones? Mirror arguments: the base on-ball defending skills are identical to man defense skills. Close out on jump shooters (2s or 3s) properly, which is hard work. Front, or three-quarter or whatever on offensive post players, with help from above or laterally. Defend dribble-drive positioning is exactly like in man. Setting up for charges is the same. The only difference is that defenders are not assigned, solely, to one opponent. And that “only difference” requires outstanding talk on defense, more than for man-to-man.
Out of Bounds Plays, Press-Break, Multiple Defenses
High school teams run baseline and sideline out of bounds plays. They sometimes run both a man defense and some sort of zone, such as a matchup 2-3. HS teams won’t be great at doing these things – timing and spacing will frequently be off – but they nonetheless have time to learn, and then use in games, a couple of basic defenses and a sideline out of bounds ‘play’ (strategy, really), and a couple of baseline out of bounds plays. They also learn to use, in games, some form of press-break.
In one season, a D1 team has time to learn these things, if their coaching staff thinks these tactics are sufficiently important. But it may be that other basketball stuff needs more time in the coaches’ view: (i) film viewing; (ii) learning and then practicing against an upcoming opponent’s offense and defense; (iii) individual skill development such as shooting and ball handling; (iv) physical training).
Turnovers
There are two kinds of turnovers: dead-ball, and live-ball. The latter are killers. Our guards (K&K) must stop casually turning the ball over for layups at the other end. Coach Underwood needs to wake up and stop mumbling about high-risk, high-gain passes. The BS turnovers, casual, lazy, pick-pocketed ones are not in any way shape or form high-risk, high-gain. They must be eliminated, or we’re going to lose a game we cannot lose.
sacraig
- The desert
This was a lot of words.
On the other hand, I remember being blown away when Lon Kruger would switch to a zone for a possession or two, and it would completely throw off the opponent.
That's worse than us...right? Oh boy
Hamer will throw a box and 1 on him, or double from 3
ginabackes00
CrazedUIFan
Would it take an undefeated season to never see a post about us playing a zone defense?
Some say TikTok is a waste of time. There is a guy from Chicago area, Aiden Chang, that has "bourbon and blobs" and "coffee and sets."
I enjoy watching his stuff. Draws the play up and then has videos of teams running it.
Good stuff
I enjoy watching his stuff. Draws the play up and then has videos of teams running it.
Good stuff
I've looked for a couple years. It's gone
That was more of a nightmare.
Well to be fair, no one was talking about it this time until (lame duck/dead man walking…whichever you prefer) Mike Woodson (of all people) used it to beat the first place team in the B1G and their Hall Of Fame coach.
But what undoubtedly got the party going was when one insider brought up the taboo subject…only to have a difference of opinion with a second insider.
Bigtex
- DFW
But Michigan state couldn’t / didn’t carve up an Indiana team who doesn’t regularly play zone. I understand it is a “talking point” for the staff but find the objection to make a change as baffling.From a former college coach.....They go over every ball screen because they want to force guys into 2's with a rearview contest and they play exclusively drop coverage in ball screens which fits the personnel they have. It's also a mindset of being tougher than everyone else and going over on average shooters to keep that mindset and toughness for when we play good ones. % game on 2 point shots.
As for zone...If they went to a zone Izzo would carve it up with specials and then rebound IL out of it. And you don't zone when your the best rebounding team in the country
It is not like half of the teams Illinois has played have had 1 guy go for season / career high. Several behind the keyboard are suggesting switch up the defense no one is suggesting switching to Syracuse zone permanently.
If the players can’t play zone or the staff can’t implement zone - then how about trapping or doubling one of the players going for a career high?
skyIdub
"I can't tell you. Secret."
DevILLDawg
- Meredosia, Illinois
I'm no advocate for zone BUT to turn your nose up to a certain defense or scheme in general after a dumpster fire Indiana goes into East Lansing...
Well to be fair, no one was talking about it this time until (lame duck/dead man walking…whichever you prefer) Mike Woodson (of all people) used it to beat the first place team in the B1G and their Hall Of Fame coach.
But what undoubtedly got the party going was when one insider brought up the taboo subject…only to have a difference of opinion with a second insider.
To even suggest a scheme change or different approach is heretical to some.
I've been vocal that I'd stay man to man but go under screens and geek the MSU guards.
Apparently, that approach is "not tough enough".
KJ will pick up a couple cheap fouls trailing like clockwork. Instead, of just letting him sit back and go straight up with his 6'6 frame to contest poor jump shooting MSU...
DevILLDawg
- Meredosia, Illinois
More than any scheme, defense, etc....
If KJ plays more than 30 minutes you win this game.
Maybe he can avoid the cheap fouls on trail-contest. I hope he can...
Going for pump fakes and the sloppy turnovers have been the only 2 things I could nitpick about his stellar play.
If KJ plays more than 30 minutes you win this game.
Maybe he can avoid the cheap fouls on trail-contest. I hope he can...
Going for pump fakes and the sloppy turnovers have been the only 2 things I could nitpick about his stellar play.
Sloppy turnovers and bad shooting should not be in the same sentence as stellar play. 4 assists and 5 turnovers yesterday...... that's not ok. If he returns to stellar, I'll like our chances down the stretch. That's a huge if.
There sure are many facets of KJ's game that I enjoy and respect as elite. But his propensity to have his lunch money virtually grabbed from him 2 to 4 times a game is grade school level play and simply should not happen....more than a handful of times in a season and not in one game. If college level players can bully his handle away, what can the pros do?
That said, I am more than thrilled his shot has returned and is once again dependable. Tomi too! We roll as those two roll and our supporting cast is pretty good also.,,yet very young. But they are all good guys and work hard which gets a tip of my cap.
Yes because the possibility of Illinois playing a zone defense actually exists while the latter option has never existed.
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