pruman91
- interviewing new NL's daily....I really really am
Pregame: Illinois vs Michigan State, Saturday, February 15th, 7:00pm CT, FOX
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uofi7477
- Silver & Gold Vandals
Yes, but the obsession with Ben is even more off the charts.
Well to be fair, no one was talking about it this time until (lame duck/dead man walking…whichever you prefer) Mike Woodson (of all people) used it to beat the first place team in the B1G and their Hall Of Fame coach.
But what undoubtedly got the party going was when one insider brought up the taboo subject…only to have a difference of opinion with a second insider.
Even before the season started, I posted hoping this team would play some zone, due to their inexperience, size and length. I still think it would be good for us; not a steady diet, but from time to time, forcing our opponent to rethink what they're doing offensively.
Illini in OC
In. The. Alley.
Can't speak for Loyalty but
I can assure you I obsess about @pruman91's NLs more than I do about almost anything
No idea about Pru himself.
With Boeheim now gone, pretty certain most of the world obsesses very little about zone defense...
Hey, stay on topic!
OrangeBlue98
Iowa is not in a great spot right now (LvilleILL1)
- Des Moines, IA
My biggest issue with the defense isn't going to a zone (if we have never prepared or practiced it, then I definitely don't want to test that in a game), but not making any sort of adjustment with the regular defense.
Several of us said to double/trap on ball screens against Rutgers since only two players could possibly beat us. Well, look what happened. Our defense is not effective, and I don't see any real effort to make adjustments. Plan B is just "Plan A, but better". These are college basketball players - they can adapt to a new method of doing something. I do have to admit it's kind of telling that the coach many of us have continuously lampooned seemed to have a wrinkle to help his team get a big win.
Several of us said to double/trap on ball screens against Rutgers since only two players could possibly beat us. Well, look what happened. Our defense is not effective, and I don't see any real effort to make adjustments. Plan B is just "Plan A, but better". These are college basketball players - they can adapt to a new method of doing something. I do have to admit it's kind of telling that the coach many of us have continuously lampooned seemed to have a wrinkle to help his team get a big win.
Big Jack
- Decatur
Fire Hamer and hire someone who can teach a zone defense …
And someone who can also figure out you might wanna guard the guy who’s absolutely torching you from 3 last night …
Just my thoughts …
Yes, the way we often end up trailing behind the player with the ball as he goes into the lane is stupid. I know the theory is we want them to take mid-range twos because of percentages but it usually ends up burning us. On top of that it without anybody helping stop the ball it puts the trailing defender in very poor position often getting our gaurds into foul trouble. All any smart player has to do is jump into the trailing defender as he goes up to draw a foul. If this is indeed Hamers scheme, he needs to go.
Big Jack
- Decatur
drsmitty74
- Rochester
Did your dad already inform you that you were not coaching next year? How about your buddy Ham Samich? He get his walking papers yet?From a former college coach.....They go over every ball screen because they want to force guys into 2's with a rearview contest and they play exclusively drop coverage in ball screens which fits the personnel they have. It's also a mindset of being tougher than everyone else and going over on average shooters to keep that mindset and toughness for when we play good ones. % game on 2 point shots.
As for zone...If they went to a zone Izzo would carve it up with specials and then rebound IL out of it. And you don't zone when your the best rebounding team in the country
To be fair, the obsession with Ben’s playing time was very warranted- Brad is a better coach than any of us will ever be, but it does not mean he’s not without some blind spots and faults
There is no perfect metric to measure a player’s effectiveness but one readily available is Hollinders game score (which does not adjust for minutes played just overall effectiveness, 10 is an average score) Ben has had negative scores 3 times this year and has only been “above average 6 times” getting 30 minutes regularly. Morez has had better game scores in many fewer minutes in many of the games - it’s a simple as “play your most effective players” fans posting to go with Morez at the 4 and playing Will more were right. It took injuries and illnesses for Brad to come around to that
Ben has played better the last few games but he’s still not an above average player but any of the metrics. Coaches can get stubborn by playing the guy who “follows the scout and is always in the right place” but simply is not better or more effective than true freshman in Will and Morez- they need to be getting more of Ben’s minutes if we’re going to go places in the tournament. Brad seems to get this with KJ and lives with the freshman mistakes. He needs to do that for Will and Morez and he has been lately and the team is playing better. If he reverts back to Ben playing 30 minutes when Tre back - you are going to hear the loud calls again for Ben to come off the bench and play 15-20 minutes in a shooter role and those people will be right in saying that
Ben Humrichous 2024-25 Game Log | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
2024-25 Game Log for Ben Humrichous
www.sports-reference.com
Couple things:
MSU went nearly 8 minutes without scoring at one point and made maybe 10 fg over the last 25 minutes of that game against IU.
MSU is not a stellar half court team. They’d rather get a shot up before you are properly matched up. You know what you don’t have to worry about in zone? Finding your man!
What does MSU’s half court offense look like? They have 4 guards who want to get into the paint. If they can draw a contest from the big man sitting in drop (or sitting there because he’s guarding a non-shooter), they get a ton of offensive rebound put-backs off of that. Or they just make those circus layups in which they jump straight into the big and flip the ball up almost over their shoulder (invented by MJ, btw). Zone, while otherwise not great for rebounding, negates this type of offensive rebound because you have a guy standing in position to prevent the weak side crash once the big is forced to contest the dribble penetration.
That said, I think Izzy would have his guys a little better prepared if he saw a 2-3 again. He probably has a very specific lineup in mind for it too. I also don’t think we’d see another dismal shooting night out of Sparty. B1G opponents are shooting 38.5% from three in our building!!! I’m of the mind to limit attempts rather than offer more of them.
So, gotta limit live ball turns. Sounds weird but I’d rather see some late clock hero ball throw something at the rim than trying to force the ball into places and get it stripped. If we are getting tired (and this was a huge issue the other night in both halves), throw in a couple possessions of zone just so we can take a break from having to get matched up. Or do it once or twice early just to see if it rattles MSU a little bit. I think they will be relieved to see some man after the other night and that alone might restore some confidence. Go under a Fears ball screen - just try it. If the screener doesn't completely bury you and he wants to try a step-back, have at it. A confident shooting fears might be best for the defense as the game wears on. Maybe try some small ball when Tomi is out - switch ball screens and switch those double pin-downs. Rez can play perimeter D if the principal is we are okay giving up a step back in favor of playing off and cutting off the drive. Gotta talk better than the other night but straight up switching is easier than drop-switching.
Really quite simple, haha. Go Illini.
MSU went nearly 8 minutes without scoring at one point and made maybe 10 fg over the last 25 minutes of that game against IU.
MSU is not a stellar half court team. They’d rather get a shot up before you are properly matched up. You know what you don’t have to worry about in zone? Finding your man!
What does MSU’s half court offense look like? They have 4 guards who want to get into the paint. If they can draw a contest from the big man sitting in drop (or sitting there because he’s guarding a non-shooter), they get a ton of offensive rebound put-backs off of that. Or they just make those circus layups in which they jump straight into the big and flip the ball up almost over their shoulder (invented by MJ, btw). Zone, while otherwise not great for rebounding, negates this type of offensive rebound because you have a guy standing in position to prevent the weak side crash once the big is forced to contest the dribble penetration.
That said, I think Izzy would have his guys a little better prepared if he saw a 2-3 again. He probably has a very specific lineup in mind for it too. I also don’t think we’d see another dismal shooting night out of Sparty. B1G opponents are shooting 38.5% from three in our building!!! I’m of the mind to limit attempts rather than offer more of them.
So, gotta limit live ball turns. Sounds weird but I’d rather see some late clock hero ball throw something at the rim than trying to force the ball into places and get it stripped. If we are getting tired (and this was a huge issue the other night in both halves), throw in a couple possessions of zone just so we can take a break from having to get matched up. Or do it once or twice early just to see if it rattles MSU a little bit. I think they will be relieved to see some man after the other night and that alone might restore some confidence. Go under a Fears ball screen - just try it. If the screener doesn't completely bury you and he wants to try a step-back, have at it. A confident shooting fears might be best for the defense as the game wears on. Maybe try some small ball when Tomi is out - switch ball screens and switch those double pin-downs. Rez can play perimeter D if the principal is we are okay giving up a step back in favor of playing off and cutting off the drive. Gotta talk better than the other night but straight up switching is easier than drop-switching.
Really quite simple, haha. Go Illini.
Too close to call at this time…but Pru does provide from time to time photos of NL’s…haven’t seen many pics of zone defenses…just saying
Always appreciate your very honest feeling that you share with usFire Hamer and hire someone who can teach a zone defense …
And someone who can also figure out you might wanna guard the guy who’s absolutely torching you from 3 last night …
Just my thoughts …
Learn something new today:
It is not stupid, it is done by design, but players need to be better about not fouling (can note that I've seen improvement from Will in this area).
I suppose reasonable minds can disagree on this. It still seems silly to me, but some of you all know a lot more about basketball than I do so I'm happy to accept your rationale. I will say that if this is our desired (coached up) way to handle these high ball screens, we've got to get a lot better in our execution. The NBA clips you sent show the defender getting around the screen pretty efficiently and in time to contest the shot (without fouling). It seems to me that our guards have a much more difficult time getting over the screen, which creates a lot more space between the defender and the ball handler and, more often than not, ends up with our defender just running into the ballhandler from behind and/or fouling the shooter without making enough contact to actually disturb the shot.
Yes, we are fouling the jump shooter far too often. That needs cleaned up.
But the basic idea is you have a 7 footer in drop in front of him and the guard behind him, so his only options are either shoot a contested 2 pt jumper or pick up the dribble.
Edit: This will sound facetious, but I definitely get a kick out of the "these philosophies and ideologies used in the professional game are stupid, we need do X which I learned and now implement when coaching my youth YMCA league team instead" type of responses. I'm certainly more open and understanding of more well thought out skepticisms such as yours, though.
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Battle89
- Cary-Grove, the better Trojan team
Just disregard that last game of the regular season. Also, apparently Bruce did use it sometimes.
I know it's done by design. I just don't agree with it. When has it ever been better to gaurd somebody from behind or the side vs staying in front. I guess that was Mathew Meyers thinking also.
This is explained in above post
You're not going to stay in front unless you switch, and if you don't switch, then the rear view contest with drop coverage is optimal. It's not really arguable imo.
Swith or hedge the screen so the defender can keep up with the ball handler. That's what a lot of teams do to us and it usually causes us fits. I would rather see that approach vs trailing the cutter and I can argue it all in want.
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