Coaching Carousel (Basketball)
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Illini2010-11
- Sugar Grove
All of that can be true, but the stat that matters the most is that he has a .466 win % in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, he wins a lot of regular season games, but for some reason, his teams get worn down in the playoffs (time management has been brought up a lot).
To the bolded, his teams have historically bowed out in the first or 2nd round. Over his NBA coaching career, he has made the playoffs ten times:
- 4 times lost in first round
- 4 times lost in second round
- 2 times lost in third round (Conference finals)
Thibbs has without a doubt brought stability to the Knicks, but I can understand moving on if they want to take the next step or have a candidate they believe will get them there. That Game 1 collapse was really damaging, IMO. Thibbs is a very good coach for sure though. Not sure he is championship caliber though.
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ptgrd23
- orange county CA
last 10 Knicks coaches, past 20 years Only Woodson and Thibodeau are over 500.
2005 Larry Brown 23-59
Isiah Thomas 56-108
Mike D'Antoni 121-167
Mike Woodson 109-70 -----
Derek Fisher 40-96
Kurt Rambis 9-19
Jeff Hornacek 60-104
David Fizdale 21-83
Mike Miller 17-27
Tom Thibodeau 226-174 - playoffs 4 years in row, conference finals
Knicks worrying about getting to NBA Finals.
Have not been there since 1999. I don't think it was Thibodeau's fault. Worst owner and front office in the NBA.
Like firing Illini football coach for failing to make BCS.
2005 Larry Brown 23-59
Isiah Thomas 56-108
Mike D'Antoni 121-167
Mike Woodson 109-70 -----
Derek Fisher 40-96
Kurt Rambis 9-19
Jeff Hornacek 60-104
David Fizdale 21-83
Mike Miller 17-27
Tom Thibodeau 226-174 - playoffs 4 years in row, conference finals
Knicks worrying about getting to NBA Finals.
Have not been there since 1999. I don't think it was Thibodeau's fault. Worst owner and front office in the NBA.
Like firing Illini football coach for failing to make BCS.
Not without a championship caliber roster.
But then again that's true of any NBA coach.
Illini in Italy
- Illini HQ, Florida Panhandle
HEY, don't dis the bikini shoots!
Yes but he is succeeding in the playoffs with the Knicks right now... Literally just got to the conference finals. The best result they have had in 25 years.
Illini2010-11
- Sugar Grove
Without a doubt, the Knicks overachieved this year in the playoffs (they likely beat the Celtics even if Tatum did not get hurt). They did not have a real deep roster, and it limited the long-term prospects of this squad.
My main critique of Thibs has always been the hyper focus on winning every game possible in the regular season at all costs. Many coaches use the regular season to tinker with their lineup construction for various information gathering data points on how certain lineups perform together, sometimes at the expense of a game or two in the standings. I think I read that the Knicks starting lineup played more than 200 minutes more than the league's second-most used lineup this season. A major mistake (IMO) was not getting more information gathering of a two-big lineup of Robinson and Towns in the regular season (I think they only played 47 total minutes together or 3.4 minutes per game). I don't think it would have made a major difference in the postseason, but when the Knicks ran into difficulty in the postseason, they did not have many fallback lineup options that had datapoints of how they would perform together. That is primarily a front office roster construction issue, but not one that Thibs should get an entire free pass on either since he did not tinker with the lineups much in the regular season to get various options to play with in the postseason.
I think two things can be true at the same time, the Knicks wildly overachieved in the postseason but also disappointed as well when it mattered the most. The justification (as the Knicks have stated) of firing Thibs because they want to take the next step and win championships makes sense but only if the Knicks get the right hire. There are roster construction issues that would need to be addressed, and the Knicks have a history of making the wrong coaching calls. In that view, the firing of Thibs is stupid. However, the NBA of today is not necessarily rational -- see Denver firing Malone less than 2 seasons after winning the championship.
The real indicator of how stupid it was firing Thibs will be who they can bring in to replace him.
The thing is the Bulls firing was very similar to this one - immediately after a season in which he made the Conference Finals. The Bulls actually replaced Thibs with a very good coach who, in the very next season, did worse enough than Thibs that he missed the playoffs altogether. With essentially the same roster. We will never know if he would have done better in the playoffs, though I kinda doubt it.
Illini2010-11
- Sugar Grove
The Bulls only made the Conference finals once in his tenure...the first season. His last season with the Bulls they lost in the second round vs the Cavs, though it could be argued that series was the de facto series to determine the Eastern Conference Champ (both would have beat the top-seeded Hawks). Who knows how the tenure would have been with the Bulls had Rose's knees held up.
I want to be clear though: I think Thibs is a great head coach, I just have my doubts if his coaching style would ever result in a championship team (unfortunately all of his teams have had serious roster flaws, so we will never know). He knows how to win though. I suspect the Knicks will regret firing Thibs, but in this day and age, I am never surprised by any coaching firing anymore.
You are stating true things and yes they may have overachieved this year but it's just a big stretch to fire him. I totally get be wears people out and that he should let up... And maybe he can't. I would have figured at least another year or 2 then we reach this point.
Plus I'll take any chance to call James Dolan an idiot, lol
You're right, it was Eastern Conference Semis and I misread it. My bad, I hang my head in shame.
Shrugging that embarrassment off, I think to a degree Thibs is a casualty of his own success. His teams do really well in the regular season, and don't suffer the lapses other teams suffer against teams they should be beating. This inflates their record compared to their actual roster strength.
Take this year's Knicks team for example. This team did not have a good record vs the elite teams in the league. 0-4 vs. the Cavs. 0-4 vs. the Celtics. They did not have a winning record against any team seeded #3 or higher, in either Conference. They were a combined 1-7 vs the Celtics and Pistons, both of whom they beat in the playoffs. I think there's a strong case to be made that on a question of pure quality, the Knicks were overseeded at #3 in the East. And then in the playoffs they overperformed that #3 seed. The irony is that if the Knicks drop a few more games in the regular season and end up as the 5th or 6th seed, then get to the 2nd round, maybe nobody sees this team as a contender anyway, and Thibs still has a job.
Can Thibs win a championship? I really don't know. I honestly don't think he's ever had the kind of roster that would be capable of winning one. I'd have loved to see him get hired to coach the Nuggets. That would have be a real test of whether he can do it. But they hired Adelman full time and with Thibs' reputation there was no way that was going to happen anyway.
theNewGuy
- Dallas, TX
I don't know much of anything about the NBA but it is an interesting discussion.
My thoughts are this:
I don't think there is such thing as a championship caliber coach. Only 1 team and 1 coach win each year.
Many coaches are pegged as never being able to win a championship until they actually do it.
It is just as much on the players, as it is the coach, as it is the situation that you are given in front of you.
We were all questioning if Brad was capable of making the 2nd weekend until last year.
The loss to Loyola was a huge disappointment. What if we played a different 8 seed? Situation matters. Might've made the final 4 or the final.
Is McDavid capable of winning the Stanley Cup? If he doesn't this year what will the media say about him?
My opinion is that the more bites of the apple you have (playoff appearances) the better chance you have to win 1 championship. St louis blues come to mind... so many short playoffs and finally one broke our way.
My point:
To me, it seems like the Knicks let go of a really good coach after a really good season and a mildly disappointing showing in the playoffs.
Making the playoffs consistently is extremely important for 2 reasons:
1. keeps fans engaged
2. generates extra revenue
The only reason I could understand getting rid of this coach is because his message got stale in the locker room. otherwise it makes no sense to get rid of him
My thoughts are this:
I don't think there is such thing as a championship caliber coach. Only 1 team and 1 coach win each year.
Many coaches are pegged as never being able to win a championship until they actually do it.
It is just as much on the players, as it is the coach, as it is the situation that you are given in front of you.
We were all questioning if Brad was capable of making the 2nd weekend until last year.
The loss to Loyola was a huge disappointment. What if we played a different 8 seed? Situation matters. Might've made the final 4 or the final.
Is McDavid capable of winning the Stanley Cup? If he doesn't this year what will the media say about him?
My opinion is that the more bites of the apple you have (playoff appearances) the better chance you have to win 1 championship. St louis blues come to mind... so many short playoffs and finally one broke our way.
My point:
To me, it seems like the Knicks let go of a really good coach after a really good season and a mildly disappointing showing in the playoffs.
Making the playoffs consistently is extremely important for 2 reasons:
1. keeps fans engaged
2. generates extra revenue
The only reason I could understand getting rid of this coach is because his message got stale in the locker room. otherwise it makes no sense to get rid of him
The Knicks five starters played 949 more minutes than the Pacers starters. You can’t do that in 2025. Tibs is a coach that can get you almost there He makes teams better, but not elite.
drsmitty74
- Rochester
Would Jay Wright come to the Knicks and coach his former players?
Won’t be a CBB coach getting the Knicks job …
Wow, the ex-players really suck at this. It makes me realize that being one means diddly when it comes to coaching...
This may have been a player instigated coup. The scuttlebutt I've heard, including in a player interview, is that the starters were upset about the number of minutes they were playing. They felt is was putting undue stress on their bodies. The feelings were conveyed to Thibs, and ignored. Using the starters in heavy minutes is his MO, with downsides already listed above by
drsmitty74
- Rochester
Malone?
I think Thibs could have absolutely won a title if he ever had a championship caliber roster. He's a very good coach that has done a good job with player development and elevating the floor but I just don't think he's ever had a true championship contending roster.
That Bulls team that made the Eastern Conference really overachieved imo. They had some good pieces but they were starting Keith Bogans and Ronnie Brewer was the other guard playing next to Rose. They legitimately only had one shooter on the roster in Korver.
Getting Boozer was also a mistake and he was never as good as his reputation imo. I think they could have beat the Heat if they got Stoudamire instead of Boozer.
Then Rose got injured and was never the same. He did develop Butler into a star but the rest of the roster really wasn't up to it by that point. If Rose had stayed healthy he could have a title contending team with Rose, Butler, and Noah as a core.
He took over an awful Timberwolves team and had them in the playoffs in year 2. Then once again inherited a terrible Knicks team and turned them into a consistent playoff team and now had a conference finals run despite his two best players not being able to play a lick of defense.
I think his personality is probably grating with front offices but the guy is a great coach.
Reminds me of some travel baseball coaches I know. Can't ever lose a game so you have to always pitch your best, then kids get burnt out at the end of the season.
This has been a common theme for Thibs. Yes, he gets results, but he also drives players too hard during the regular season and they have nothing left in the post season. Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture if you want a bigger trophy.
OrangeBlue98
Iowa is not in a great spot right now (LvilleILL1)
- Des Moines, IA
Isn’t that going to be Thibs 2.0?
On the other hand, the only way to get conditioned to play long playoff series where guys are often playing 40+ minutes with generally only one day between games is to play a lot during the regular season not play 60 games and constantly take rest days.
I don't think the Knicks were worn out and lost to the Pacers because of playing too many minutes. The Pacers are just playing fantastic basketball and present some matchup problems for them imo. Also, it was an incredibly close 6 game series where games 1 and 2 could have easily gone the other way and we would be looking at the Knicks in the finals right now.
I don't think the Bulls teams ever got worn out either. They just weren't as good as the heat and then Rose tore his ACL(the way he landed was always going to result in knee injuries those had nothing to do with Thibs). Then Luol Dengs issue was the medical staff.
OrangeBlue98
Iowa is not in a great spot right now (LvilleILL1)
- Des Moines, IA
But there is a happy medium somewhere in between those ends of the spectrum. You can't just run your starters out there every single night for 40+ minutes and expect them to be fresh and fit for the playoffs.
Two somewhat related examples.
1) When I trained for a half-marathon several years ago, my training peaked about four weeks prior to the event. My last long run was about 12 miles, then I tapered to where my last long run was in the 5-6 mile range. I wasn't running 45 miles a week the week or two prior to the event.
2) My son's soccer team has a coach who has a lot of similar ideas as Thibodeau regarding running players into the ground. At the end of the season, he was still having his players engage in heavy physical training the last month of the season, sometimes training every night for up to two hours a night. The team lost its last four games because everyone was fatigued and nursing some type of injury. The players and parents were pleading to reduce training, but the coach thought he knew better and kept grinding them. The results at the end of the season spoke for themselves.
I get you won't be playoff-ready with a ton of rest days, but you also can't be flat out all the time and expect to be anywhere close to peak for when it matters most.
If the rumors about Giannis ultimately ending up in New York happen, don't be surprised if someone like Jason Kidd ends up getting the Knicks job. Kidd already has a connection with Brunson from their time in Dallas.
Kidd also coached Giannis. That didn't turn out so well for Kidd.
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