Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#76      
ChiefGritty
Mobi said:
So we now think Bruce was a good coach? 🤣🤣🤣
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Pre Covid/Portal/NIL was a different sport. KSU is one of those programs that is much weaker in this environment, and of course Weber is as perfect of an example of a coach not built for this environment as you can think of.

hooraybeer said:
is the consensus not that BW is a solid coach that was just a bit over his head here?
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A fatally flawed coach, I guess would be the way I'd say it. He has forgotten more about basketball than any of us will ever know, but except for that brief beautiful moment here, he basically wasn't able to recruit or productively coach players with the talent level to accomplish anything at the high-major level.

Cut out his first two seasons here, and his teams in his career were generally better the less talent they had, it's a very weird resume that way.

He could not sell players who were any good on his vision and methods for basketball, except for one time and we all know that a broken Dee Brown foot might be the miracle responsible for that.
 
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#77      
NarrowJ
hooraybeer said:
is the consensus not that BW is a solid coach that was just a bit over his head here?
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Good coach, yes. His players loved him and played hard for him. Player development, defensive focus, and yes... even in-game coaching were strengths. Inability to obtain top talent was his major flaw as a coach. Some people didn't like that he's a goofball, and that clouds their view a bit imo.
 
#79      
Justan opinion
ChiefGritty said:
Pre Covid/Portal/NIL was a different sport. KSU is one of those programs that is much weaker in this environment, and of course Weber is as perfect of an example of a coach not built for this environment as you can think of.


A fatally flawed coach, I guess would be the way I'd say it. He has forgotten more about basketball than any of us will ever know, but except for that brief beautiful moment here, he basically wasn't able to recruit or productively coach players with the talent level to accomplish anything at the high-major level.

Cut out his first two seasons here, and his teams in his career were generally better the less talent they had, it's a very weird resume that way.

He could not sell players who were any good on his vision and methods for basketball, except for one time and we all know that a broken Dee Brown foot might be the miracle responsible for that.
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He had top15 recruiting classes while here. Unfortunately he recruited to please alumni and not players that he needed for his system. He was a lot like Lovie Smith. They were going to run their system whether they had the players to or not.
 
#81      
ChiefGritty
Justan opinion said:
He had top15 recruiting classes while here. Unfortunately he recruited to please alumni and not players that he needed for his system.
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He basically didn't even want the players that made up those good classes, it was a toxic brew.

NarrowJ said:
His players loved him and played hard for him.
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A lot of them didn't.

I cut my teeth on the Illini internet proclaiming Weber's profound weaknesses and unsuitability for this job and I don't intend to let the haze of nostalgia obscure those realities.

There never was or could have been a world in which Bruce Weber had top level high-major teams year after year, his fundamental inability to generate buy-in from NBA-level talent through the life cycle of a player just could never have allowed for it.

He'd have been better off as like a Gregg Marshall or a Ben Jacobson.
 
#82      
NarrowJ
ChiefGritty said:
A lot of them didn't.
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Pretty common in coaching, its partially why when the portal became Wild West you are seeing 4k kids every year... a lot of it is kids moving around to get more $ but there's going to be little argument from me that it has also exposed the fact that players tend to like coaches that give them playing time and dislike coaches that do not.

Bruce's most notable rifts were likely Dee & Luther when he first came on and there was rumors of transfer because they did not like his strict conditioning/weightlifting programs. However, I think those relationships mended over time and there was eventually a mutual appreciation, at the very least, if not lasting respect and love by the time those players' time ended at UofI.

Meyers was interesting too. Weber publicly criticized Meyers for his body language. And we all know about his relationship with Demetri. I think at K-State there were issues with Jacob Pullen, but harder for me to assign blame to either side there because I just didn't follow K-State as a program.

I'm not sure there is evidence that there were any more 'rifts' or what have you than, lets say, what Brad has experienced over his coaching career. Instead of saying "his players loved him and played hard for him", I should have used less absolute phrasing there, for sure.
 
#83      
ChiefGritty
The Sprouting Divot said:
There's a universe where if Bruce doesn't leave SIU for Illinois, he's still down there today with a well-earned reputation for tournament upsets and Cinderella runs.
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He might well have been Gene Keady's successor in that alternate universe instead of Painter.

Painter is kind of the guy to look at in analyzing Weber, since in terms of the "good coach, great with X's and O's" piece it's essentially exactly the same between the two of them, they both learned and teach the same basketball tactically and philosophically.

So what has made Painter so much more successful and able to sustain a program reloading elite players over and over in the way Bruce never could?

I think it really just comes down to him being able to produce a level of trust and understanding out of players, from 17 year old recruits to 5th year senior NBA players-to-be that was just never there with Weber, even in the positive situations there was always a bit of a wall between Weber and his players.

Painter being a person of a different generation who was a high-major player himself surely has some causal role there (which I think also made Painter better able to evolve and change over the years), but I guess at the end of the day different people are different.

Man am I glad we don't have to bang our heads against this problem anymore (though I'd like to go back to being as young as I was when we did!)
 
#88      
RabidDawgClassic
Indy Illini Fan said:
Don’t think Tyler is leaving until Brad is done …

Just not the vibe I get from that situation …

He’s had opportunities and turned them down …

Let’s just ask the man himself … @illini0440 … 🤣
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#90      
mhuml32
Scheyer to the Bulls is 100% fueled by Scheyer's agent. There's no chance the Bulls just gave Donovan an extension and they're already planning to fire him with how the Reinsdorfs do business.

I'm happy to be dragged for this post if I'm wrong.
 
#100      
IllinitripleJ
ChiefGritty said:
A conversation about how Bruce Weber stunk transitions into a conversation about Jon Scheyer. Small world!
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That hurt losing Scheyer. Weber's brother was Scheyer's high school bb coach and Illinois was finishing up a great 7 year run under coaches Kruger, Self and Weber and he still couldn't recruit him. Another solid big guard in 2006 that was under the radar was Osiris Eldridge who had a very solid career for Illinois State. I assume Illinois could have got him. Weber also missed out on Julian Wright, Sherron Collins and Evan Turner in 2005, 2006 and 2007. He also missed out on Fred Van Fleet in his last recruiting class at Illinois. 2012 was really bad as we missed out on Fred Van Fleet and then when Groce got the job he didn't bring Caris LeVert with him. Caris was going to Ohio University but after Groce got the job at Illinois he decommited and Beilein/Michigan grabbed him. LeVert has had a very successful career in the NBA and is still playing. He's a 6'7" two guard.
 
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