I think you're selling the Z value short.
Am i crazy on Andrej though? I feel like that dude has helped us win a lot.
Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread
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I think you're selling the Z value short.
Am i crazy on Andrej though? I feel like that dude has helped us win a lot.
I think Andrej is extremely good in situations where:
1. We are bigger
2. We are more talented
3. He can get into transition
4. He gets brought into the offense early on
Outside of ideal conditions, he just fades into the background. He's definitely had some really good games, but I feel like unless he's a focus on offense early, he doesn't really get involved. He needs some usage early and then he can be his best.
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With all due respect, any top tier player we were in on and we were getting "Denzel" gifs....they signed somewhere else for more money and we were told how stupid the other program was and did the "we didn't want him anyway.". Then, Mirk committed and the board was frustrated. We got Petro and some of the board were elated.
When Morez left, we got the "we didn't need him anyway" crowd.
Unless we're going to pony up for a guy like Yaxal or a legitimate can't miss guy(how many of those are there)....it's a crapshoot. Look what happened to Creighton. They spent a ton, but couldn't get them to mesh and they were awful.
Trying to get a whole new roster to come together is extremely difficult, which is why you can't live in the portal. Sometimes it's better to just being your own guys back. In hindsight, doing everything possible to keep Morez(no matter how ugly the negotiations are) and White... probably the best option.
There's a LOT that goes into the portal and NIL. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Brad doesn't just pick and choose guys, they like our money better than everyone else's, and he gets what he wants. If that was the case, we'd all be Michigan.
The whole staff is part of it, Josh is part of it, admissions is part of it, parents are part of it, handlers are part of it, budget is part of it, etc.
IMO, bring back what we can, get Ty back and don't go out trying to find 8 guys to fill out the roster.
All of this is not only fair, but in agreement on. I've tried to steer away from "ROI" on players because i just think it's a tough formula to crack. So is there guys on "lesser deals" who might have been better, yes! But that is super hard to nail down.
And he's our second leading scorer, behind only an NBA top 5 pick, in an offense that despite criticism, we can all agree at a mere baseline, is quite good. Also, at a baseline, we all agree our athleticism is not good, and he's probably our most athletic guy (which is a compliment but also a critique). He's just an odd one to pick on in IMO.
There's been some real disasters of high-paid transfers throughout the country, and for some reason, I think some fans think Andrej falls into that bucket, or close to it, and that is maddening to me.
Tells good jokes?
The guy from last year, who truly fits this example for me was Darrion Williams. He joined the portal late, so taking a step back you saw he was the athletic, skilled wing, dog/winner, veteran who was tailor made to be the final piece to a really nice roster - and in hindsight, I think he would have been exactly that.
Indy posted we'd have interest, and in like 20-minutes it was abundantly clear we didn't have the funds for him.
I’m implying the two transfer are 1st/2nd team all BT type players.
I think that team is better than this years team. Jake, Ty, Tomi and Z are very experienced. Mirk has the potential to be very good next year. Plus adding two all BT type guards. I think we have to roll with the experienced players we have who are old and have been in the system. The following year will be a lot of new blood. I think we need to take advantage of being able to have a veteran team (and adding two stud guards).
I mean, what in the world??
All this essentially would be is to swap Keaton, Kylan, Andrej for TWO All BIG level guards and Ty Rodgers.
Out of Keaton/Kylan/Andrej only one was All BIG.
You know the current team will (more than likely) be a 3seed right?
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'd have interest in buying a Porsche, I'd go to the dealership(Denzel's would come out) and I'd leave 10 minutes later, heading over to check out some a fully loaded Honda/Hyundai....a nice car, from overseas and it fits the budget. Then, the guy living next door, who is an oil tycoon, buys the Porsche and I'm told that I mismanaged my money.
rmlsr
- El Paso,IL
Just pointing out that use of money to construct the roster was not the good imo. Btw I said that when he was constructing this roster and I was not a fan of many of the players that they were targeting. Luckily for us that Keaton Wagler turned out to be as good as he was or else this team would have been in a world of hurt. Btw BU was planning on Wagler getting 5-10 minutes a game until he was on campus so he was a definite welcome surprise that saved this team by covering up lots of flaws.
He’s just throwing whatever he can on the wall and hoping it sticks. Legitimately makes no sense at this point.
Illinicpa14
- Chicago
While all true points, I don’t think you can penalize him for the guys he brought on campus, and not give him credit to wagler. The 10-13 guys are the guys he got to show up.
But I just think about the dollars spent on these 3 guys in particular:
1. Andre
2. Petro
3. Rodgers and to no fault of his own but by simple ROI we’ve spent 2 years on him with no production now. And as much as he may be positive culture behind the scenes, that isn’t showing up to the on the court team.
It’s easy to see how if those dollars were all pooled and on lendenborg or haggarty or pick your favorite high end Mercenary, would we be somewhere else.
Who weren't you a fan of?
We avoided spending a huge bag on Josh Dix, Isiah Jackson, Dame Sarr (as good as he's been for Duke he's a role player and we don't have 3 mill to spend on a role player) and probably other guys I'm not remembering right now
Andrej was 32nd on the transfers list on 247 and had a better season than more than half the guys ranked in front of him
As far as Mihailo Petrovic, I never would have envisioned him as being anywhere nearly as good as Keaton has been so I think whatever money was spent on those two guys was more than worth it.
Really good post to a broader point on player ROI and why it's difficult for me to judge. You can say Keaton saved the entire roster and we'd be a fringe tourney team without him, but id argue Brad has shown over and over and over again, he's gonna make the roster work offensively. If it wasn't Keaton, I imagine we're back to playing through Tomi and Kylan again, and then all of a sudden Tomi's "ROI" is back to level, even though the team would be slightly worse off. Or if Keaton didnt work out, now we're playing a faster pace, where Andrej is better, and now his "ROI" is higher.
Fun analogy - i like it.
Adding to it, in this scenario, it's not that you can't have the porsche. You just gotta bargin shop in other areas of your life, get incredibly lucky with a few shrewd investments, and pray you don't ding it up backing out of the driveway.
The point being, we have enough as a program to make a final 4 or championship run, our margins are just so small, but just having that opportunity is something to be thankful for.
We had the funds … We just had already allocated them and Brad wanted AS …
Had the funds for guys like Ryan Conwell, Rodney Rice (yes I know he’s hurt), Dailyn Swain, AJ Storr, Tyon Grant Foster … Just to name a few …
We had the funds for Ace Miller … Brad went with Petro … Which cost us even more …
Part of the reason I think this whole Euro model was the way Brad went was because we don’t have the relationships with the key people like we used to …
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Darrian Williams on a bad NC State team:
13.8pts, 4.6rebs, 2.8ast on 41.3% FG.
David Mirkovic on Illinois:
13.4pts, 7.8rebs, 2.6ast on 48.7% FG.
Sounds to me like a pretty good price bargain.
13.8pts, 4.6rebs, 2.8ast on 41.3% FG.
David Mirkovic on Illinois:
13.4pts, 7.8rebs, 2.6ast on 48.7% FG.
Sounds to me like a pretty good price bargain.
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Illini in Italy
- Illini HQ, Florida Panhandle
Yeah, there is some smokin’ hot takes on AS . . . some border on insane.
Don’t think anyone would argue how great the ROI has been on Mirk & Wagler … I’d even throw Jake into that mix …
Love what Ben has brought defensively but we need more offensive production from the guy in that spot … He took a pay cut but I would’ve looked elsewhere for that spot … More athletic wing …
Z has been inconsistent but for the money … It’s not been an awful investment …
Tomi, Andrej, Petro, Boswell … That’s where the majority of the $$$ was spent … ROI hasn’t been there for any of them IMO …
You make great points and the one about Keaton isn't discussed enough. This year has proven how absolutely fragile it is to put a team together that meshes, then keep it on track.
I look at Wagler. He was fantastic when the season started and was a perfect match with Boswell.
Boswell went down and Keaton absolutely exploded onto the national scene and became a projected lottery pick. We were rolling.
Kylan came back and it seems as though our backcourt really isn't operating the same. We are clearly a better team when both Boswell and Keaton are in the floor together, but it does seem like there's indecision on Keaton's part right now. He was clearly to go to guy. When Boz came back, it looks like Keaton isn't sure whether to defer, when to attack. The chemistry looks a little funky, right?
To go along with that and to your overall point, which Emerald touched on, with the rise of Wagler, I think there was a demise to Drej. I think that it was initially thought that Drej was going to be getting the bulk of the touches. Being a secondary, even tertiary open hasn't sat well. Coming off the bench was not what he was envisioning and I think that's had a major, major effect.
I might even put Tomi in that category. The offense was supposed to run through the post with Tomi being a Swiss army knife. He could play with his back to the basket and finish, he could pass out of the post and be a distributor and he could shoot the three. That was his role and last year, he was REALLY good.
With the rise of Keaton came a LOT more iso ball. We can't complain about the outcome because the guy was close to dropping 50 on Purdue, had 30+ in others....he was dominant.
This is way too long winded, so apologies. The gist is, there's only one ball. Everyone foresaw their role, loved it and they signed to play here. When you don't play together for a couple of years, the smallest turn of the screw can alter what you had or your intentions. Without time for significant chemistry, it's tough to retain consistency or meet expectations.
My point is not that this roster construction was perfect. I've been very critical of the athleticism all year. While most people were whining about BLOB's during the 12 game winning streak, I was always pointing out how scary it was we didn't get anything easy in transition.
I'm not really crying over Adam Miller, he's been whatever - shooting 30% from 3 and he doesn't help the athleticism. Tyon Grant-Foster wasnt even eligible until late October - this board would have rightfully questioned that move. AJ Storr? meh.
If it was merely Williams versus Andrej, in hindsight, id take Williams with the emergence of Keaton. But guess what? I'm seeing Derrion as the primary option in Raleigh and his shooting efficiency is down, and that team is mid. My true point was as it relates to "elite NIL" - elite NIL means I don't have to choose.
The losses of Chester and Tim came back to bite us? I figured losing TA made life with Morez tougher.
I agree with the thought that a bit of the recruiting needs to change but I disagree that European players can't with a national championship.
Arizona starts 2 Europeans and they may very well win it this year.
You just have to build the team so they are surrounded with guys that can compliment them and off-set their potential lack of foot speed.
Big Jack
- Decatur
I just have to throw this out to you since you have inside knowledge we do not have. I always try to pay as much attention to players attitudes during games and while on the bench. It was glaringly clear KB and AS bonded quickly, certain there was a friendship or knowledge of each when he got here. However I have sensed for some time now that the close nit group that started this season is no longer. Seems to me like there are 2 groups of players in fighting. Not gonna call people out but just seems to me like there is some team elements missing, which to me explains some of the lackluster play.
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