Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread

#501      
NarrowJ
hangdog said:
Now who is being naive? Professional/NCAA sports are sold/marketed/hyped to us fans as entertainment and exist as is purely for $$$.
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Not all sports are played in front of even a single fan, I think was his point

I just played 5-on-5 with my teenage son and his buddies (yikes, I'm old) and there were no fans or reporters or tv crews present


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#502      
PleaseMakeABowlGame
bavanga3 said:
Musselman has twice as many 2nd weekend appearances in less years, a better winning percentage, never had any of his seasons vacated, and at his 3rd school has started out better in his first two years at a football school than Underwood did at a basketball school. Don't get me wrong, I'll take Underwood as my coach, but Underwood is not objectively better. That's your opinion and maybe your as guilty of being prisoner of the moment as the people who insist on being critical.
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Says the same guy who thinks Vaaks isn't our PG.
 
#503      
RabidDawgClassic
NarrowJ said:
Not all sports are played in front of even a single fan, I think was his point

I just played 5-on-5 with my teenage son and his buddies (yikes, I'm old) and there were no fans or reporters or tv crews present


View attachment 50544
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Gotta say… I’ve never been so uninterested in ongoing discussions on this site as I have been with these two. So in order to get things on a better track, here’s a picture of a pizza I made at home. #homemadepizza

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#507      
bavanga3
lstewart53x3 said:
Who else thinks it will be Coleman?
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Here is my issue. The same people that say Vaaks will our point guard are the same people that can't explain what a point guard is and say basketball is position less.

Fact of the matter is we all thought it would be Petrovic last year and were wrong.

We have 4 playmakers in our starting lineup. Vaaks and Coleman are both combo/shooting guards to me. The primary ball handling duty will be sorted out throughout the year just like last year. Somebody will have to earn it and go take it. Coleman has that assertiveness to do that. Whether he does or not, time will tell. Anybody that thinks anything is guaranteed at this point is fooling themselves.
 
#508      
Combo
bavanga3 said:
Here is my issue. The same people that say Vaaks will our point guard are the same people that can't explain what a point guard is and say basketball is position less.

Fact of the matter is we all thought it would be Petrovic last year and were wrong.

We have 4 playmakers in our starting lineup. Vaaks and Coleman are both combo/shooting guards to me. The primary ball handling duty will be sorted out throughout the year just like last year. Somebody will have to earn it and go take it. Coleman has that assertiveness to do that. Whether he does or not, time will tell. Anybody that thinks anything is guaranteed at this point is fooling themselves.
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Vaaks is assertive AF - watch his videos. Of course nothing's guaranteed. That said I predict Vaaks will be our primary PG.
 
#509      
lstewart53x3
bavanga3 said:
Here is my issue. The same people that say Vaaks will our point guard are the same people that can't explain what a point guard is and say basketball is position less.

Fact of the matter is we all thought it would be Petrovic last year and were wrong.

We have 4 playmakers in our starting lineup. Vaaks and Coleman are both combo/shooting guards to me. The primary ball handling duty will be sorted out throughout the year just like last year. Somebody will have to earn it and go take it. Coleman has that assertiveness to do that. Whether he does or not, time will tell. Anybody that thinks anything is guaranteed at this point is fooling themselves.
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Got it, so it’s just you then.

Here’s what we can say with absolute certainty:

Vaaks was brought in by the staff to be the lead guard. This has been reported by Jeremy Werner with direct intel from the staff.

You think the staff is wrong and that’s fine.
 
#510      
ChiefGritty
The thing is, we were deeply ballhandling challenged last year. We mostly got away with it and had enormous success anyway, but we're flying even a little bit closer to the sun this time.

Growing confidence in Coleman helps, but only so much.
 
#511      
NarrowJ
ChiefGritty said:
The thing is, we were deeply ballhandling challenged last year. We mostly got away with it and had enormous success anyway, but we're flying even a little bit closer to the sun this time.

Growing confidence in Coleman helps, but only so much.
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Whoa, really? Illinois was 5th nationally (365 teams) in turnovers per game. Kylan, Keaton seemed very adept with the ball. Mirkovic, as a post player, bringing the ball up the floor or initiating on offense.

Not full out arguing yet, because you typically have compelling explanations for statements like this, so interested the hear the 'why' here.
 
#512      
ChiefGritty
NarrowJ said:
Whoa, really? Illinois was 5th nationally (365 teams) in turnovers per game. Kylan, Keaton seemed very adept with the ball. Mirkovic, as a post player, bringing the ball up the floor or initiating on offense.

Not full out arguing yet, because you typically have compelling explanations for statements like this, so interested the hear the 'why' here.
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Mirk bringing the ball up was some of the most knife-edge high wire stuff I've ever seen, it was madness.

Wagler and Boswell were both solid, but that was literally all we had on the roster because of the unwillingness to play Petro and Lee. Any moment where injury or foul trouble cost us one or both of those guys we were on the ropes again.

Our offense doesn't ask for a lot of 1 on 1 dribble penetration, it's not going to reveal itself in turnovers, it's in the ability to be timely and operate our sets with the right tempo, Wagler's superpower.

Vaaks is bigger and stiffer than Wagler (hey now), and Coleman is a freshman where Boswell was a grizzled seen-it-all senior. And we still have zilch elsewhere, perhaps Stojakovic can improve his handle to provide a bit of support.

We're an unusual team, you don't get "tallest team in America" without that making you a bit of an oddball. We lacked the virtues of the pugnacious little zippy player last year, and will do so even more so next year.

We're going to destroy a lot of defenses with the things we do well, I have no fear of that. But I would just feel this team was a lot more matchup-proof if it had a floor general classic PG, and I think that would wind up our 6th or 7th man (or even our 5th) rather than 9th on many occasions.
 
#513      
GrayGhost77
NarrowJ said:
Whoa, really? Illinois was 5th nationally (365 teams) in turnovers per game. Kylan, Keaton seemed very adept with the ball. Mirkovic, as a post player, bringing the ball up the floor or initiating on offense.

Not full out arguing yet, because you typically have compelling explanations for statements like this, so interested the hear the 'why' here.
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Agree. "Deeply ball handling challenged" is I think WAY overstating it. We literally had 3 guys most fans could feel comfortable bringing the ball up and dribbling through space, plus three plus passing big men.
 
#515      
NarrowJ
I just went to look at the NCAA leaders in lowest turnover percentage expecting to find Keaton Wagler somewhere in there if I changed the filters such that it would only include high usage players. But, before applying the filter I was met with this:

1781123884074.png


Forgot all about that... (unrelated to current discussion on ballhandling, but pretty cool nonetheless)
 
#516      
Combo
ChiefGritty said:
The thing is, we were deeply ballhandling challenged last year. We mostly got away with it and had enormous success anyway, but we're flying even a little bit closer to the sun this time.

Growing confidence in Coleman helps, but only so much.
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"Deeply" is exaggeration. We didn't have a lot behind Wagler and Kylan, but those two usually played a lot of minutes, so didn't usually matter. Andrej's handles were pretty typical for a SF. Mirk had good handles for a PF (though I agree that you don't want him getting too fancy). Ben and Jake were smart in that they didn't really try to handle more than necessary.

I'd agree that it would be nice to have another adept, quick, ball-handling guard, but we're not in bad shape there. We're far from the worst ball-handling team.
 
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#517      
nichi
hangdog said:
Now who is being naive? Professional/NCAA sports are sold/marketed/hyped to us fans as entertainment and exist as is purely for $$$.
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Sure. "They" enhance and monetize the intrinsic entertainment value. To an extent, it's done with recreational sports too.
 
#520      
jamarvelous31
Combo said:
"Deeply" is exaggeration. We didn't have a lot behind Wagler and Kylan, but those two usually played a lot of minutes, so didn't usually matter. Andrej's handles were pretty typical for a SF. Mirk had good handles for a PF (though I agree that you don't want him getting too fancy). Ben and Jake were smart in that they didn't really try to handle more than necessary.

I'd agree that it would be nice to have another adept, quick, ball-handling guard, but we're not in bad shape there. We're far from the worst ball-handling team.
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ChiefGritty said:
Mirk bringing the ball up was some of the most knife-edge high wire stuff I've ever seen, it was madness.

Wagler and Boswell were both solid, but that was literally all we had on the roster because of the unwillingness to play Petro and Lee. Any moment where injury or foul trouble cost us one or both of those guys we were on the ropes again.

Our offense doesn't ask for a lot of 1 on 1 dribble penetration, it's not going to reveal itself in turnovers, it's in the ability to be timely and operate our sets with the right tempo, Wagler's superpower.

Vaaks is bigger and stiffer than Wagler (hey now), and Coleman is a freshman where Boswell was a grizzled seen-it-all senior. And we still have zilch elsewhere, perhaps Stojakovic can improve his handle to provide a bit of support.

We're an unusual team, you don't get "tallest team in America" without that making you a bit of an oddball. We lacked the virtues of the pugnacious little zippy player last year, and will do so even more so next year.

We're going to destroy a lot of defenses with the things we do well, I have no fear of that. But I would just feel this team was a lot more matchup-proof if it had a floor general classic PG, and I think that would wind up our 6th or 7th man (or even our 5th) rather than 9th on many occasions.
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This feels like a continuation of the 9th man convo in that people are bored and are talking themselves into doubting how fun this years team could be.. Last year, Vaaks had a 26% usg rate and a 11% turnover rate in conference.

That's the ~same usage and a lower turnover rate than Braden Smith, Jeremy Fears Jr., or Keaton Wagler. The only PG that would've been better was Bennet Stirtz.
 
#521      
NarrowJ
ChiefGritty said:
If you didn't have your heart in your throat when Mirk was barreling down the floor at the Breslin Center I don't know what to tell you.
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I don't remember needing a heart monitor while watching him dish out 6 assists with 0 turnovers at Breslin:

1781124918626.png


But yeah, I get it... dude be crazy (no more underhand, full court softball pitches, please)
 
#522      
Ga65
Different topic but with Dre, Coleman, and Williams we have some excellent speed and athleticism. Curios to see if Williams is good enough to see minutes and if that would create a more fast break offense. Bringing in Z and Williams off the bench could create a spark with the offense speeding up. I expect changes from last year but not sure what they will be. Some pressure defense possible and would love to see different defenses throughout the game. Flying Illini ala BU.
 
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#523      
ChiefGritty
Tangent: when did it get so sabermetric in here?

Are you guys not all Boomer Peoria Dads anymore?
 
#525      
RichardKeenesCousin
Second place is 1st loser said:
Ok, are we talking about the vast majority of sports or the mega revenue generating ones? Yes, if I'm watching my kid play, it's not about me whatsoever.

The second I put money down to watch a professional athlete play, the same money that pays their salary/NIL, yes.....I'm paying for entertainment. When the commercials are purely based on viewership, our time watching, and this money goes into lining billionaires pockets....I have a vested interest. We all do.

Furthermore, the entities running the events are entertaining us as part of getting us through the door, whether that be shooting t-shirts into the crowd, putting up kiss cams, playing music during intermissions , etc.....the whole thing is part of a show for the fan experience.

Now, if you're saying that it's free, I don't have to buy tickets, the concessions are free, I have absolutely no skin in the game and it's 100% outcome based... where the fans showing up have absolutely no impact on NIL, multiple million dollar salaries, etc and it is limited to players playing the sport for sport....it's not about us anymore. At that point us, as fans, are of no relevance. It's a glorified YMCA game at that point. At that point, it's not about any of us.

How many times have our insiders referred to ROI based on paying our players based on wins and losses? Is that just about the sport? No, the current product doesn't exist without us. Our entertainment and money is mandatory to the products current existence.

If the players don't want to be paid, we're just showing up for support and our existence is meaningless....it's all about the game. In all other instances, the entertainment value and our players deciding to play where they want to play based on our participation....I want my money's worth.

Can't move the goalposts and lump high D1/professional sports in the same category as a High School gym on a random Tuesday night.
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New Years Kiss GIF by Samantha
 
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