NBA Draft

#76      
Emerson Bigguns
ChiefGritty said:
Hard to have the trust in Graham who doesn't have any track record yet to say that.

Wilson seems to be so exactly in line with the philosophy Graham articulated (SLAP, size length athleticism physicality) that it's hard to imagine the Bulls passing on him, but if the top 3 cool on Peterson should we be cooling on him too? All of a sudden that's a really hard question.

I liked nothing I saw or heard out of Lawrence this year, frankly.
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Cooling is a relative term, especially in terms of tis particular draft. The top 4 all have legitimate All-NBA potential. They are getting picked apart at a rare level because its tough to differentiate when they all have rare and elite traits.

I have questions about Peterson's make-up, but he might also have the highest ceiling in the draft. The opportunity to draft a guy with his level of talent is extremely rare. There is nothing on a basketball court that he can't do at a high level.

I simply think he had minimal interest in paying college basketball. He certainly wasn't going to risk his body to do it. For that reason, I wouldn't blame any of the top 3 to go with a guy who has exhibited more competitive fire, but no one can argue the drop off from #4-#5 in terms of physical talent, and star potential.

He played hard and extremely well when he played. The question is, why did he play so little?

If he's healthy, I'm not sure there is anything that SGA does that he can't do. You can't pass on that guy at 4...but we are talking about the Bulls...
 
#77      
jamarvelous31
the juiceman cometh said:
Yeah, they are terrible owners. But they did not tell Thibs to keep D. Rose in. That was Thibs doing what Thibs has always done, and what he continued to do after he left the Bulls.

By the way, Derrick Rose still ended up having an above average career even for the #1 pick in the draft. It wasn't what it could have been. Clearly he was on a whole different kind of trajectory before the injury. But his career hardly "died" because he got drafted by the Bulls.

Plus if all you have is 2 anecdotes from 10-20 years ago, I can match those:

Jimmy Butler - 2011 Draft, #30 - Definitely did not have his career ruined by being drafted by the Bulls. In fact, had a much better career than you'd anticiapte given his draft slot. 6x All-Star (3 of those were with the Bulls), 5x All-NBA, 5x All-Defense.

Tony Snell - 2013, #20 - Not a superstar, but for the #20 pick, 8 season and 600 games played is a great career. Look at the chart below. A lot of lottery picks don't get that.

James Johnson - 2009, #16 - Dude played 16 NBA seasons. Career definitely did not "die."

Bobby Portis - 2015, #22 - 11 years, 721 games, and still going strong. Good NBA career for a late first round pick.

Taj Gibson - 2009, #26 - Dude is 40 years old, and still in the league. Has played in over 1,000 NBA games, over 17 seasons, with career earnings of approximately $95 million. Not a bad career for a late 1st round pick!

Wendell Carter - 2018 Draft #7 - 461 games including 423 starts over 8 seasons, still going strong (played 78 games this season, starting every one) well on his way to outplaiying the below chart.

Coby White- 2019 Draft #7 - 472 games, 251 starts over 7 seasons, still going strong and at 25 will very likely out-do the average career length on the below chart.

And I mean, lest we forget, our man Ayo. Getting drafted by the Bulls probably ended up with him having more opportunity than other possible landing spots, and that has been key to him carving out what looks like it will be a very good NBA career even though the odds were stacked against him as a second round draft pick.



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They hired and empowered Thibs. The response here is substituting addressing the point around an Illini player going as a top 10 pick to a bad organization with a laughably asinine definition of success as "games played" of "every player ever drafted by the Bulls". FFS Tony Snell?!?!! Mr. 0 0 0 0.

Also saying Rose had 'an above average career' is extra silly. The dude had 30 WS & an MVP in his first 4 years and then 13 WS over his final 11. The average #1 pick has 76 WS in their career.
 
#79      
the juiceman cometh
jamarvelous31 said:
They hired and empowered Thibs. The response here is substituting addressing the point around an Illini player going as a top 10 pick to a bad organization with a laughably asinine definition of success as "games played" of "every player ever drafted by the Bulls". FFS Tony Snell?!?!! Mr. 0 0 0 0.
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Didn't Ayo also famously have a 0 0 0 0 game? Is he some kind of failure now?

And why are years and games "laughably asinine" when the question is about quality of career? Longevity in the NBA is not a given, and is kind of a key determinant of your "career." I think any player would take an 8-year NBA career playing in NBA games over a 5-year NBA career warming the bench. Don't you?

Also that chart is the average career length of every player drafted in that slot by any team, not every player drafted by the Bulls.

jamarvelous31 said:
Also saying Rose had 'an above average career' is extra silly. The dude had 30 WS & an MVP in his first 4 years and then 13 WS over his final 11. The average #1 pick has 76 WS in their career.
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The comment that started this discussion said that the Bulls were where "careers go to die." D-Rose is not an example of that. He had a lot of success as a Bull, and then suffered an unfortunate injury that could have happened anywhere. And in the end his career didn't "die." He never became the superstar that he could have, but still had a very good NBA career.

Jimmy Butler, meanwhile, is proof positive that you can get drafted by and play for the Bulls and have a top notch outcome. How many guys going 30 overall have had the career Butler has had? Can you think of a single one?
 
#80      
Emerson Bigguns
jamarvelous31 said:
They hired and empowered Thibs. The response here is substituting addressing the point around an Illini player going as a top 10 pick to a bad organization with a laughably asinine definition of success as "games played" of "every player ever drafted by the Bulls". FFS Tony Snell?!?!! Mr. 0 0 0 0.

Also saying Rose had 'an above average career' is extra silly. The dude had 30 WS & an MVP in his first 4 years and then 13 WS over his final 11. The average #1 pick has 76 WS in their career.
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Hard to argue anyone who ever won an MVP had a below average career...(only 34 guys in history have ever done that, only 11, #1 picks)

Injuries are tough, but he certainly justified his being chosen #1 with his play. There is very little a FO can do to predict serious injuries to both knees.
 
#81      
IlliniShelt
the juiceman cometh said:
Didn't Ayo also famously have a 0 0 0 0 game? Is he some kind of failure now?

And why are years and games "laughably asinine" when the question is about quality of career? Longevity in the NBA is not a given, and is kind of a key determinant of your "career." I think any player would take an 8-year NBA career playing in NBA games over a 5-year NBA career warming the bench. Don't you?

Also that chart is the average career length of every player drafted in that slot by any team, not every player drafted by the Bulls.


The comment that started this discussion said that the Bulls were where "careers go to die." D-Rose is not an example of that. He had a lot of success as a Bull, and then suffered an unfortunate injury that could have happened anywhere. And in the end his career didn't "die." He never became the superstar that he could have, but still had a very good NBA career.

Jimmy Butler, meanwhile, is proof positive that you can get drafted by and play for the Bulls and have a top notch outcome. How many guys going 30 overall have had the career Butler has had? Can you think of a single one?
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A little context on the 'one trillion' games...Snell played 9 minutes without recording a single stat, after a quick internet search, I couldn't find Ayo having played longer than 1 minute during his one trillion game.
 
#82      
the juiceman cometh
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