1/21 Games

Obelix · Jan 21, 2017

StateFarmCenter said:
Elite programs don't go through 4 coaches in 8 years, 2 of which who left for better opportunities. Period. Ridiculous to argue otherwise. You cannot be on that verge when people clearly viewed the program as a stepping stone, which was clear Illinois was.

"Elite" has no meaning, a successful coach at Illinois will always have overtures from the KU, UK, UNC, and Duke's of the world and the NBA. If that make us stepping stone, that is perfectly fine, much more preferable than taking the program from were it was in 2003 and making totally irrelevant in 2012. That was worse than probation.

For the record, Weber inherited a basketball program that had won 76% (78-24) of its games the previous three years under Self and 73% (35-13) of its conference games. In fact, no coach in Illini history had ever inherited a program with better winning percentage in its 98 year-old history. Getting even better, no coach in the history of the Big Ten Conference had ever taken over a basketball program with such high BT winning percentage since 1947, when Ohio State's William H. Dye succeeded Harold Olsen who had gone 30-6 (83%) in conference games during the depleted World War II years.

You can call it whatever you want, but that was the program in 2003.

Obelix · Jan 22, 2017

MadSeason said:
Weber's tenure definitely sobered up many an Illini fan.

I contend even Kruger and Henson are viewed more favorably because of Weber and now Groce.

Absolutely agree, Self in particular was enemy number one, Dr. Evil, when Weber was winning with Self's recruits, it was Weber's huge failure that brought many fans back to their senses.

I also agree with the Henson and Kruger comment, very true indeed.

MadSeason · Jan 22, 2017

Obelix said:
Absolutely agree, Self in particular was enemy number one, Dr. Evil, when Weber was winning with Self's recruits, it was Weber's huge failure that brought many fans back to their senses.

I also agree with the Henson and Kruger comment, very true indeed.

I admit it. I wanted to believe. We were in Final 4 and I was insulting Kansas fans in St. Louis calling him Bucknell Bill.

Deep down I knew though. MTV had a behind the scenes season type thing with SIU when they made sweet 16 with Weber. Every player there rolled their eyes at the guy and he came off like a head case. Fast forward few years and he is giving the 5 finger speech. I knew we were screwed.

RickBB · Jan 22, 2017

MadSeason said:
Lou and Lon weren't particularly cool guys either but they made it work in much more difficult circumstances.

What Self left here is basically the right fit for any coach that has an ounce of ability. You really had to work hard not to keep Illinois rolling in those days. The roster Weber inherited was absolutely loaded. Probably the best since the Flyin Illini

Lon was a 2 time Big 8 player of the year and was supposedly a pro baseball prospect as well. He probably carried himself with some swag.

Totally different era when Lou coached.

Self left a full cupboard and it's totally on Weber that he didn't capitalize on that momentum. But to say the nature if his personality doesn't impact the perception of how good a coach he is with some people I feel is just not honest.

Don't misrepresent what I'm saying...I think he's an average p5 level coach who isn't a great recruiter, but knows his X's and O's....but I remember !!!!!ing about in bounds plays during his tenure too. I think some players will tune him out, others will play their hearts out for him. His kids will usually play defense...and if he has kids who understand off the ball movement they will look pretty good. And he will drive fan bases crazy cause he takes kids bowling and to the custard shop.

MadSeason · Jan 22, 2017

RickBB said:
Lon was a 2 time Big 8 player of the year and was supposedly a pro baseball prospect as well. He probably carried himself with some swag.

Totally different era when Lou coached.

Self left a full cupboard and it's totally on Weber that he didn't capitalize on that momentum. But to say the nature if his personality doesn't impact the perception of how good a coach he is with some people I feel is just not honest.

Don't misrepresent what I'm saying...I think he's an average p5 level coach who isn't a great recruiter, but knows his X's and O's....but I remember !!!!!ing about in bounds plays during his tenure too. I think some players will tune him out, others will play their hearts out for him. His kids will usually play defense...and if he has kids who understand off the ball movement they will look pretty good. And he will drive fan bases crazy cause he takes kids bowling and to the custard shop.

I don't dispute that his personality got in the way and didn't buy him any slack. There is a natural aversion to seeing your coach scream like a banshee with magic marker on his face.

My point is that Lou and Lon figured out ways around their limitations. Sorry but Lon wasn't and still isn't cool. Paint drying is more interesting. Weber eventually tried to adapt by bringing in Jerrance and it worked to an extent, but he just couldn't coach a bunch of RSCI top 100 kids. That's why I don't buy the X's and O's argument.

Obelix · Jan 22, 2017

RickBB said:
But to say the nature if his personality doesn't impact the perception of how good a coach he is with some people I feel is just not honest.

Personality has a tremendous impact. And it was one of the main reasons that I thought Weber was a terrible fit from the get go. We had a bad public image from the probation, and had been isolated from top HS/AAU programs with the Chicago (and media) boycott. Even with Kruger, it was doubtful that he could completely turn the tide. But Lon set a lot of the groundwork and Self came in and was able to make amends with media, coaches, AAU programs, HS programs, etc. I remember Jay Mariotti on ESPN (the day Self's Illini played UNC) saying "I can't wait to watch my Illini beat UNC this evening." Jay Mariotti! Complete turnaround. Enter Weber and his personality, you knew right there that we were going to lose all that. Realistically, we knew from day 1.

Then recruiting. Weber was not known as a recruiter, and as I have said multiple times, for a coach to be successful at Illinois, he has to be a great recruiter. Not a sufficient condition, but necessary. Weber was not it, and we knew it again from day 1.

For the record, I do not consider Weber a great X's and O's coach, but not a bad one either. Definitely above average. But he is not a recruiter and does not have the personality to motivate in order to build a consistent winner at a high-pressure environment like Illinois.

MadSeason · Jan 22, 2017

Obelix said:
Weber was not it, and we knew it again from day 1.

Yes we did. 18 years as an assistant at a very successful program without a sniff? Yeah we knew

Cymoin · Jan 22, 2017

The more I read what people are writing, the more I'm convinced that 99% of us have no clue about anything as it relates to D1 CBB. Today, the previous coach who was mercilessly criticized and run out of town upset a certain team that beat the living you know what out of us back in November. Oh, we were so ecstatic that first year when Groce won with his players and continued to throw darts at a man who'd already started his new job in the state of Kansas. And without any top recruits, and after losing his star player to Creighton, this coach has his team playing nose to nose with all comers. They lose by one to Maryland, 2 to Kansas and then they win today over Press Virginia. Let's face it. We had no clue what we were talking about then and, while we think we do now, we don't. You want more evidence? Three years ago, after going to another NIT, Maryland had five players leave the program...and four were starters. Did you read that right? Yeah, 4 starters who were all highly rated players...and a 4-star freshman PG left the program...a program that was yet to go to the NCAAs under Mark Turgeon. What do you think they were saying on the Terrapin message boards back then? Need a hint? But what happened? An entirely new crop of kids came in the next season...all new except for Jake Layman...and the Terps have been to the NCAAs every year since and made the Sweet 16 last year. We have no idea what is going on with Illini Basketball but there is a lot more going on here that meets the eye.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 22, 2017

Cymoin said:
The more I read what people are writing, the more I'm convinced that 99% of us have no clue about anything as it relates to D1 CBB. Today, the previous coach who was mercilessly criticized and run out of town upset a certain team that beat the living you know what out of us back in November. Oh, we were so ecstatic that first year when Groce won with his players and continued to throw darts at a man who'd already started his new job in the state of Kansas. And without any top recruits, and after losing his star player to Creighton, this coach has his team playing nose to nose with all comers. They lose by one to Maryland, 2 to Kansas and then they win today over Press Virginia. Let's face it. We had no clue what we were talking about then and, while we think we do now, we don't. You want more evidence? Three years ago, after going to another NIT, Maryland had five players leave the program...and four were starters. Did you read that right? Yeah, 4 starters who were all highly rated players...and a 4-star freshman PG left the program...a program that was yet to go to the NCAAs under Mark Turgeon. What do you think they were saying on the Terrapin message boards back then? Need a hint? But what happened? An entirely new crop of kids came in the next season...all new except for Jake Layman...and the Terps have been to the NCAAs every year since and made the Sweet 16 last year. We have no idea what is going on with Illini Basketball but there is a lot more going on here that meets the eye.

I will be the first to say that Bruce Weber is a better pure basketball coach than John Groce. But, if you go back to 5 years ago, Bruce Weber lost the team. His voice was lost with the players. He wore out his welcome. He was not recruiting at a high enough level and his team basically quit on him in that final year. He was a coach that did not adapt(he always played man-to-man defense and never considered or adapted to playing zone and his half-court motion offense was the most boring brand of basketball I have seen). I think the school and him needed a fresh start and it was the right move to make for all sides. Groce, although being option C or D, was branded as someone who would bring fresh energy, renewed optimism, and hope. He did that in Year 1. Year 2 was a disappointment but given what he did in Year 1, we were all willing to look past it. Then, 2 years of injuries gave him the benefit of the doubt. Year 5, he has no injuries, he has a team full of upperclassmen and all he has to show for it is a team that has zero identity, no discipline, and plays absolutely no defense. Year 5 is a microcosm of the last 3 years and now he doesn't have injuries to hide behind. This is what Groce's team is and I have no doubt that 95% of the fans no longer have blinders on. This is unacceptable and you don't need to be a coach or a part of the program to realize it.

gibb52 · Jan 22, 2017

StateFarmCenter said:
Not sure what the point of posting that three year stretch is, when it was the 3 year stretch that would follow would crush those numbers and be the greatest 3 years in the history of the program (or at least since the early Harry Combes days). They were of course coached by none other than Bruce Weber, to no credit of his own I guess.

Weber deserves a lot of credit for 2004-2006. He took a roster of really good players and made them into a really good team, got all the way to a NC game. Can't take that away from him. Tremendous job.

Behind the scenes the cratering was already in motion. When your team is all over ESPN, all over CBS, and Sports Illustrated loves the Illini and you can't get out of your own way on the recruiting trail and end up with the likes of Richard Semrau the end is already in motion.

ChrisNMattoon · Jan 22, 2017

Cymoin said:
The more I read what people are writing, the more I'm convinced that 99% of us have no clue about anything as it relates to D1 CBB. Today, the previous coach who was mercilessly criticized and run out of town upset a certain team that beat the living you know what out of us back in November. Oh, we were so ecstatic that first year when Groce won with his players and continued to throw darts at a man who'd already started his new job in the state of Kansas. And without any top recruits, and after losing his star player to Creighton, this coach has his team playing nose to nose with all comers. They lose by one to Maryland, 2 to Kansas and then they win today over Press Virginia. Let's face it. We had no clue what we were talking about then and, while we think we do now, we don't. You want more evidence? Three years ago, after going to another NIT, Maryland had five players leave the program...and four were starters. Did you read that right? Yeah, 4 starters who were all highly rated players...and a 4-star freshman PG left the program...a program that was yet to go to the NCAAs under Mark Turgeon. What do you think they were saying on the Terrapin message boards back then? Need a hint? But what happened? An entirely new crop of kids came in the next season...all new except for Jake Layman...and the Terps have been to the NCAAs every year since and made the Sweet 16 last year. We have no idea what is going on with Illini Basketball but there is a lot more going on here that meets the eye.

GMAB!!! Weber's teams after the Championship year slowly went downhill every year. 2nd Round exit, 1st round exit, no tourney....... Recruiting was getting really bad and this program was going no where. It was time after a decade of Weber to move on. The only problem was that Thomas was unable to hire anyone good because of....well....Thomas. His reputation turned a lot of coaches away and he was left with Beckman and Groce. I don't care about Maryland. Heck, Michigan St. promoted one of their assistants and became a giant blue blood, does that mean Paris Parham should be next coach? Come on. Anyone who thinks Groce should stay at this point is completely high.