Illini1221
Peru,IL
I'm sure Josh will take this post into consideration.
2017 Coaching Carousel
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I'm sure Josh will take this post into consideration.
MrOizo
- Chicago
If Whitman's decision is "NCAA or bust" based on his analysis of what it would take for him to keep Groce, there would be no downside to starting the process in advance. Right? Essentially, short of Illinois winning 3 BTT games, they aren't dancing. If he started the process behind the scenes and then Illinois beats 3 Big Ten teams in the tourney (including a Purdue type team), I imagine anyone involved would understand.
If Whitman isn't sure at this point (one way or the other), I'm a bit concerned.
Weber also should've been fired earlier. A big part of him taking the program downhill was keeping him around too long. What if he had been fired and replaced with, say, Dana Altman?
Keeping Groce is just making the same mistake again.
You do not know that, zero basis for believing that is Whitman's viewpoint, and Whitman has never said that has been his viewpoint with Groce. The "NCAA or bust" is the viewpoint of some posters who try to project/impose their viewpoint and try to convince themselves that it is, or has been, Whitman's viewpoint.
Whitman has given no indication (so far) that this is his viewpoint. IF and WHEN he does, we can certainly discuss then, although it would not be much to discuss, it would be a totally binary decision with exact certainly (no probabilities) base on a simple rule (making the NCAA tournament or not).
Everything here is projection.
I agree with that, but Groce and Weber are two totally different cases.
For the record, Dana Altman was indeed a candidate in 2003 when Self left, and the rumor surfaced on Illini boards that he was the one who would get the job. Just 2-3 days before Weber was hired. The reaction on Illini message boards was totally negative, to the point that many were actually relieved that it was Weber and not Altman. It actually comes to show you that what is popular on Illini message boards is not always the right decision.
Illinois does not benefit from canning Groce before the BTT. Whitman can be patient and if a miracle happens and they win it, Groce is in the NCAA and he can justify keeping him.
Conversely, Illinois does not benefit from keeping Groce during the NIT. Need to get feelers out and see who is interested while the real tournament is underway
Conversely, Illinois does not benefit from keeping Groce during the NIT. Need to get feelers out and see who is interested while the real tournament is underway
Weber was a different case because he had actually accomplished something here. Groce hasn't.
Depends, if you mean it was justified based on reaching 2005 with Self's recruits, sure. But that would contradict your own statement that "Weber also should've been fired earlier. A big part of him taking the program downhill was keeping him around too long."
But if you look at point of the program when a coach took over vs. the point of the program when coach was fired (or decision is to be made), i.e., that is 2003-2012 for Weber and 2012-2017 for Groce, it is not even close. Weber had a far more detrimental effect, a disastrous effect on the program, than Groce.
With Weber, it was at least possible to point to his earlier success (the most wins ever with this program) as a reason to keep him, while ignoring all of the evidence of his recruiting and on-court failures. Groce doesn't even have that.
Obviously, Weber took us from penthouse to outhouse. Groce has kept us in the outhouse as the pit has filled up for four years. It's time to move.
I don't understand these viewpoints. If Groce is not the guy, you fire him now. No need to waste away another year with him. Also, it would likely have to be a multi-year extension if he is kept around - that is just how agents work and it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Again, you are just trying to convince yourself that the decision on Weber in 2012 was more difficult than for Groce in 2017. It was not.
Same point has been refuted multiple times. A multi-year extension with raises, large buyouts and guarantees make zero sense and would not happen.
MrOizo
- Chicago
Agreed on this. We waited too long with Weber. I hope we don't wait any longer this time. Already one year too long on Groce, though there were a few really good reasons not to replace Groce last year (injuries, Lovie hire).
Let's learn from the past.
Groce will be back.
Exactly my point. Neither would a one year extension. Just a quick search online and I can't find a program that has given a head coach a one-year extension that only has one year left on his contract.
MrOizo
- Chicago
I hope you're wrong... But thanks for sharing what I presume to be an informed opinion.
First of all, Groce has 2 years in his current contract, not one. And as has been mentioned in many other posts, nobody advocates giving Groce a one-year extension. You can give him more. As long as you do not attach large raises, large buyouts, or guarantees, which Groce is in NO position to negotiate/impose, the actual duration of the contract has little meaning.
I hope I am too. Pretty positive I am not, however - feel free to screengrab my post and call me out if I am - nothing would please me more to be honest.
Ok my fault. I was under the impression that his current contract runs out 2017-2018.
Unfortunately, this sounds like a logical progression of events. And a year from now we'll be debating whether Groce deserves another season, except that by that time they'll probably extend his contract and that debate will be a mute point. Ah, there's always football season to look forward to, right? Groundhog Day.
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