2017 Coaching Carousel

MadSeason · Jan 21, 2017

coltjames03 said:
Can't argue that just thinking outside the box and anyone but Martin. I just find it funny because everyone praises Martin but he took over programs that were winning before him and he hasn't made them better. Kept them basically the same. Tennessee winning under Pearl, California winning under Montgomery.

I definitely get the reticence on Martin and his coaching career to this point. He hasn't done bad, but hasn't set the world on fire either.

I think my point and maybe others is that this job is the perfect fit for Martin. If he has been average at Cal and UT, he can be at least above average here with a chance to hit big. That said I am not looking forward to any form of Keady ball returning here, but beggars can't be choosers

The Pontiff · Jan 22, 2017

89illinigrad said:
From his UNCW bio:

"The engaging Keatts is known for his recruiting expertise. He helped the Cardinals compile two straight top-10 recruiting classes en route to a pair of Big East Conference championships and NCAA Final Four appearances in 2012 and 2013. In 2012-13, the Cardinals won a school-record 35 games and captured the NCAA title."

I think he'd do just fine recruiting wise.

Weird. Sounds awfully a lot like a certain ex-tOSU assistant who helped the Buckeyes compile some stellar recruiting classes as well. Like Groce not having Matta to close, I don't think Pitino and the Louisville brand would be at Keats' disposal.

LurkLongandProsper · Jan 22, 2017

The Pontiff said:
Weird. Sounds awfully a lot like a certain ex-tOSU assistant who helped the Buckeyes compile some stellar recruiting classes as well. Like Groce not having Matta to close, I don't think Pitino and the Louisville brand would be at Keats' disposal.

Sure, but Keatts has been absolutely excellent at his UNCW gig, whereas Groce was not excellent at Ohio

coltjames03 · Jan 22, 2017

MadSeason said:
I definitely get the reticence on Martin and his coaching career to this point. He hasn't done bad, but hasn't set the world on fire either.

I think my point and maybe others is that this job is the perfect fit for Martin. If he has been average at Cal and UT, he can be at least above average here with a chance to hit big. That said I am not looking forward to any form of Keady ball returning here, but beggars can't be choosers

That's very possible but I'm just not seeing it. Sure he is from the Midwest but I can't even say that Cal will make the NCAA this year. Right now he is 2-6 vs the top 100 rpi this season. I see 4 almost sure wins because the bottom of PAC 12 is just bad. Really don't want to have to go through all this again in a few years and with Martin I just don't see him being above average

coltjames03 · Jan 22, 2017

You can even add Missouri state into that. He had one great year there other than that it was right on par where they were before he even got there.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 22, 2017

The Pontiff said:
Weird. Sounds awfully a lot like a certain ex-tOSU assistant who helped the Buckeyes compile some stellar recruiting classes as well. Like Groce not having Matta to close, I don't think Pitino and the Louisville brand would be at Keats' disposal.

Yup. Keatts profiles as a good recruiter like Groce did, but the same degree of uncertainty applies.

However Groce's resume showed him to be not a difference maker as a coach of the talent he acquired whereas Keatts could hardly have done any more in his brief tenure to demonstrate the impact of his coaching, even with previously failing players who he did not recruit.

Groce's recruiting plus impact coaching is a pretty solid advertisement for a coach, wouldn't you say? And if he happens to be either or both of a skilled roster manager or someone with the magic fairy dust to close on the elite player (both of which have eluded Groce), you've got a superstar on your hands.

He's the highest upside guy on the list. And a decent floor too. I think he'd be a great choice.

Obelix · Jan 22, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
Sure, but Keatts has been absolutely excellent at his UNCW gig, whereas Groce was not excellent at Ohio

Depends what you mean by excellent. Keatts has yet to win a single NCAA tournament game, whereas Groce took Ohio to 2 NCAA tournaments (Ohio gone to 1 NCAA tournament in the last 15 years), and actually won 3 NCAA games and got to S16, something that no coach at Ohio had done since 1964 - that is in the last 46 years before Groce.

There were positives and negatives in Groce's resume and Keatts' lack of NCAA success so far may be viewed as a potential negative as well.

Many posters try to make it sound that Groce was a terrible choice from the get go, guaranteed to fail, etc. etc. He was not. He was not on the A+ list (e.g., Shaka Smart) but neither is Keatts. Both with a reputation as recruiters. Some potential risks in both their resumes. The difference is that Groce has already failed, period. Keatts has not, so just the fact that he is also known as a recruiter, does not mean that Keatts = Groce or that Groce failed, so will Keatts.

Bottom line is that there will be risk no matter who we hire, but Keatts is one of my top 3 choices, meaning willing to take the risk more than others.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 22, 2017

Obelix said:
Depends what you mean by excellent. Keatts has yet to win a single NCAA tournament game, whereas Groce took Ohio to 2 NCAA tournaments (Ohio gone to 1 NCAA tournament in the last 15 years), and actually won 3 NCAA games and got to S16, something that no coach at Ohio had done since 1964 - that is in the last 46 years before Groce.

There were positives and negatives in Groce's resume and Keatts' lack of NCAA success so far may be viewed as a potential negative as well.

Many posters try to make it sound that Groce was a terrible choice from the get go, guaranteed to fail, etc. etc. He was not. He was not on the A+ list (e.g., Shaka Smart) but neither is Keatts. Both with a reputation as recruiters. Some potential risks in both their resumes. The difference is that Groce has already failed, period. Keatts has not, so just the fact that he is also known as a recruiter, does not mean that Keatts = Groce or that Groce failed, so will Keatts.

Bottom line is that there will be risk no matter who we hire, but Keatts is one of my top 3 choices, meaning willing to take the risk more than others.

I'll take Cuonzo Martin over Keatts. Keatts hasn't proven it on the high major level like Martin has. Sorry, but how do you know that Keatts wouldn't use Illinois as a stepping stone to something bigger and better? I don't care what Keatts' ceiling is, he is no Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart or Gregg Marshall. His sample size is relatively small and this school deserves to go with a more experienced and proven coach who has connections and relationships in Chicago. Martin checks all of those criteria in my book.

But in reality, this school should be going after Frank Martin, Gregg Marshall, Scott Drew, or Buzz Williams. If Illinois wants to make a splash, one of these 4 guys should be considered. Cuonzo Martin would be an alternative and a solid hire but these 4 would bring instant credibility back to this basketball program.

Although, if Tom Crean got fired by IU,he would be another strong candidate to consider. IU thinks that Crean has underachieved and maybe by their standards, he has. But, for our current standards, he'd be a massive upgrade.

KnoxIllini2 · Jan 22, 2017

OrangeKrus28 said:
I'll take Cuonzo Martin over Keatts. Keatts hasn't proven it on the high major level like Martin has. Sorry, but how do you know that Keatts wouldn't use Illinois as a stepping stone to something bigger and better? ...

Wouldn't we want Keatts to use Illinois as a stepping stone? He'd have gotten us back to the level of S16 and E8 appearances. I'd rather be a stepping stone program than a cellar dweller any day.

Doogie94 · Jan 22, 2017

Don't post much, but here's Whitman's play (In my opinion):

1. Fire Groce between now and beginning of next year IF you get a home-run hire. Keep current recruits based on respect of hired coach (ala Lovie).
2. Keep Groce going into next season. Recruits stay on board (at least for 1 season). Fire Groce mid-season or at the end of season (assuming status quo) when there are less scholarships to go around (2018). Sets the table for the next hire.

I see a slow-play based upon great recruits and no current home-run. Now if Hoiberg is let go...

CAHALL15 · Jan 22, 2017

SescIllini said:
I think Cuanzo Martin has to be the guy right now. An ESL guy could possibly keep all of our downstate guys (and recruit Smith) in the fold. His track record at P5 programs is solid. He is a proven recruiter and will have instant credibility as a coach.

If we had an top 3 NBA lottery pick along with a second MCDAA and a few solid role players around them, wouldn't you expect a single win in the Big Dance? Secondly, check out his class this year.

OrangeKrus28 said:
I'll take Cuonzo Martin over Keatts. Keatts hasn't proven it on the high major level like Martin has. Sorry, but how do you know that Keatts wouldn't use Illinois as a stepping stone to something bigger and better? I don't care what Keatts' ceiling is, he is no Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart or Gregg Marshall. His sample size is relatively small and this school deserves to go with a more experienced and proven coach who has connections and relationships in Chicago. Martin checks all of those criteria in my book.

But in reality, this school should be going after Frank Martin, Gregg Marshall, Scott Drew, or Buzz Williams. If Illinois wants to make a splash, one of these 4 guys should be considered. Cuonzo Martin would be an alternative and a solid hire but these 4 would bring instant credibility back to this basketball program.

Although, if Tom Crean got fired by IU,he would be another strong candidate to consider. IU thinks that Crean has underachieved and maybe by their standards, he has. But, for our current standards, he'd be a massive upgrade.

Keatts did a major flip immediately. He inherited a 9 win team and guided them to a conference championship year one, year two he got them another and lost to DUKE by single digits in the tournament, and this year he has them at 19-2. He was 262-17 with two national titles at Hargrave Military Academy. All the guy does is win and he recruited some good players while he was with Pitino at Louisville.

Martin has not stayed anywhere for longer than 3 years so what if he moves on? Additionally, he's an ESL guy, not Chicago. Also, as someone else pointed out, for Keatts to be promoted from Illinois, he would have to have taken us on a few tournament runs. Lastly, how do you know what his future will be? His present and past are all positive. Those guys you mentioned weren't guarantees to be anything until they got their respective jobs. I agree that Marshall and others are more established at the P5 level.

FinalFour88 · Jan 22, 2017

Put me down for Keatts. That guy looks like the real deal to me. My only concern is that he has no Midwest ties, so is Champaign really a place he'd enjoy living?

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 22, 2017

CAHALL15 said:
If we had an top 3 NBA lottery pick along with a second MCDAA and a few solid role players around them, wouldn't you expect a single win in the Big Dance? Secondly, check out his class this year.

Keatts did a major flip immediately. He inherited a 9 win team and guided them to a conference championship year one, year two he got them another and lost to DUKE by single digits in the tournament, and this year he has them at 19-2. He was 262-17 with two national titles at Hargrave Military Academy. All the guy does is win and he recruited some good players while he was with Pitino at Louisville.

Martin has not stayed anywhere for longer than 3 years so what if he moves on? Additionally, he's an ESL guy, not Chicago. Also, as someone else pointed out, for Keatts to be promoted from Illinois, he would have to have taken us on a few tournament runs. Lastly, how do you know what his future will be? His present and past are all positive. Those guys you mentioned weren't guarantees to be anything until they got their respective jobs. I agree that Marshall and others are more established at the P5 level.

Martin has no Chicago ties? That's why he plucked Charlie Moore away from Chicago? Still want to say he has no Chicago ties?

coltjames03 · Jan 22, 2017

OrangeKrus28 said:
Martin has no Chicago ties? That's why he plucked Charlie Moore away from Chicago? Still want to say he has no Chicago ties?

Martin hasn't proved anything. He has never once improved a program. This year he is also a bubble team at best and may not even make it to the tournament in a weaker PAC 12. His offense is horrendous and just being a Midwest guy doesn't make him a premium candidate. Like I said he has never improved a program. California has been a top 3 PAC 12 team before Martin. Martin finished 6th his first year tied for 3rd last year and is a bubble team at best this year. So don't give me he is a great coach speech. He is far from that

DMan42 · Jan 22, 2017

coltjames03 said:
Martin hasn't proved anything. He has never once improved a program. This year he is also a bubble team at best and may not even make it to the tournament in a weaker PAC 12. His offense is horrendous and just being a Midwest guy doesn't make him a premium candidate. Like I said he has never improved a program. California has been a top 3 PAC 12 team before Martin. Martin finished 6th his first year tied for 3rd last year and is a bubble team at best this year. So don't give me he is a great coach speech. He is far from that

My guess is you will be very disappointed when the next coach is hired.

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Sleepy Floyd · Jan 22, 2017

DMan42 said:
My guess is you will be very disappointed when the next coach is hired.

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I think if Cunizo is hired, JW is wagering he will recruit at a high enough level to make up for his coaching defects. This is essentially the same thinking that lead to us hiring Groce. It is a bet I wouldn't make.

Sir Dunk A Lot · Jan 22, 2017

I have to agree that I don't think Martin is the answer. He is okay, and someone that I think will get an offer like Groce did... if we strike out on other guys. If he gets offered the job ahead of anyone else, I will be surprised (but I am willing to give him a chance if JW thinks he is the best candidate.. Going to trust JW to make the right decision, but there is no way he can let this Groce clown-show continue beyond this year.

DMan42 · Jan 22, 2017

The likelihood of getting someone like Gregg Marshall, Tony Bennett, Archie Miller, Buzz, Frank Martin, or Scott Drew are small. Not because Illinois' program has "fallen so far". But because these coaches make a lot of money wherever they coach and they have put effort into building those programs. They would have to essentially start over at Illinois. And IMO, 3 of them have personalities that I don't think Whitman would want to bring in. Others don't want to mess with Chicago.

There's a reason Georgia Tech ended up with Pastner, Wake Forest with Manning, Pittsburgh with Kevin Stallings, etc. Cuonzo is a solid, not spectacular coach, who coaches defense and is willing to go into Chicago and St. Louis and battle. He makes sense.

Unless you want to try Keatts or, possibly, Jeff Capel, I can't think of a better fit.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 22, 2017

MadSeason said:
I think my point and maybe others is that this job is the perfect fit for Martin. If he has been average at Cal and UT, he can be at least above average here with a chance to hit big.

I guess I don't quite understand this. Does this mean he's gonna be a better coach or a better recruiter?

He's gotten 4 five star guys in six years as a P5 head coach. He's gonna do BETTER than that at Illinois? That seems like a stretch to me.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 22, 2017

DMan42 said:
There's a reason Georgia Tech ended up with Pastner, Wake Forest with Manning, Pittsburgh with Kevin Stallings, etc.

Because they're dumb?

FiveStar · Jan 22, 2017

I don't follow this as much as others. I've seen some back and forth on the ups and downs of Martin and Keatts. Between those two I'd want Keatts. My number one is still Archie though. Has recruited Illinois kids to Dayton and has had a deep tournament run. What are his downsides?

DMan42 · Jan 22, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Because they're dumb?

Or they couldn't get anyone else. But I agree.

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The Pontiff · Jan 22, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
Sure, but Keatts has been absolutely excellent at his UNCW gig, whereas Groce was not excellent at Ohio

Don't get me wrong, I've definitely warmed up to Keats and don't dispute the apparent program/game management skills. I'm just not ready to put a plus sign in his "ability to recruit at a high level" column based on his Louisville days.

FiveStar · Jan 22, 2017

The Pontiff said:
Don't get me wrong, I've definitely warmed up to Keats and don't dispute the apparent program/game management skills. I'm just not ready to put a plus sign in his "ability to recruit at a high level" column based on his Louisville days.

The only thing that could be taken from those days is he'd still have relationships with the coaches he recruited from before. Obviously coaches with very talented kids.

Paul Kleevage · Jan 22, 2017

If Whitman hires the right guy, the recruiting class would probably remain intact. I'm assuming that would require the hiring of a coach with a big name. Do I think it will be a Lovie Smith type splash? Maybe not, but hopefully someone that screams "Illinois isn't messing around". Is Keatts that guy? Doubt it, but he might garner support if he keeps Walker on staff.

2017 Coaching Carousel

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