GortTheRobot
- North Bethesda, Maryland
I stand corrected.
2017 Coaching Carousel
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I stand corrected.
FYI, the article didn't say he has an incredible basketball mind. It said this:
The essence of the article is that "He seems to be smart about basketball, yet we see no evidence of this on the court. Maybe this is because he is a terrible teacher because he makes things way too complicated for his players."
I find it to be a very credible explanation of why he's failing as a coach and it explains your observations quite well. It's also the reason I think it's time for a new coach.
I was referencing this tweet from Mark Titus someone else posted, in which Titus refers to Groce as "the brightest basketball mind he's been around" https://twitter.com/clubtrillion/status/277644222390210560
And I stand firm in my point. There's no teaching involved in a rotation or knowing when to call timeout, and we continue to have trouble with both of those things, for example. What evidence to we have to support he is a good/great/brilliant bball mind? Seems nothing other than random anecdotes
The Pontiff
- Chicago, IL
You may be thinking of the old A-10, before Xavier, Temple, Butler and Charlotte left. The current A-10 roster of 14 teams is bloated with some sorry programs right now, according to KenPom. Almost 2/3rds of their teams this year sport a triple-digit KenPom rating.
Dayton - #39 KenPom
Rhode Island - 49
VCU - 51
Davidson - 91
St. Bonaventure - 92
LaSalle - 102
Massachusetts -113
George Mason - 119
Richmond - 120
St. Joe - 128
GW - 170
Fordham - 204
Duquesne - 223
St. Louis - 310
Now the MVC is in the same boat, with 70% of their members having a 3-digit KenPom rating. But their top two teams are higher than the A-10's, though the 9th and 10th teams in the A-10 rate higher than the same in the MVC.
Wichita St. - #22 KenPom
Illinois St. - 34
Loyola - 95
Missouri St. - 117
Northern Iowa - 155
Evansville - 157
SIU - 166
Indiana St. - 196
Drake - 217
Bradley - 235
Bottom line, both coaches are big fishes in a small pond and unless they can elevate into the Big East, like other similar basketball-only schools did (Xavier and Butler), they're going to be relegated to fighting for their conferences' 1-2 NCAA berths each year.
So in Archie's case, why not consider a hefty pay raise to coach in one of the most prestigious conferences, where 6-7 schools per year get into the Dance and often are legit title contenders.
And while Marshall already makes some serious coin, is it realistic that he catches lightning in a bottle twice at WSU? Under-rated guys like VanVleet, Baker, and Early were probably generational players there and to have three like that at the same time isn't likely to happen again.
Fair enough. I'm certainly not arguing that he is a "good/great/brilliant bball mind" - that's just an opinion offered by a few people who know him. I tend to agree with you - where's the evidence on the court?
My own opinion is that he is a smart guy who complicates rather than simplifies the game for his players. That's why we don't see evidence of good coaching on the court. In other words, I think the Lou Henson anecdote cited in the article pretty much explains things:
BTW, constantly shouting instructions at players during a game can only add to their confusion.
Didn't realize they were brothers (not that that means anything). But knowing this I think for sure that if Whitman offers him the job he's coming (and if NCSt doesn't fire Gottlieb). It's sibling rivalry. I think he would jump at the chance to coach a major basketball school and be on the same level as his brother. And have the chance to prove he can coach successfully at a school similar to Arizona just like his brother. I know I would.
The Hoiberg situation is seemingly about to boil over after tonight. The Bulls are completely dysfunctional with Butler caught telling Hoiberg to !!!! off on camera and Wade laying into everyone during the post-game presser. I no longer believe Hoiberg is surviving the season, even with the Reinsdorf loyalty factor and Garpax involved.
Illini4Reel
- Champaign, IL.
Whitman has to call up Fred Hoiberg after tonight's game. We could get him so cheap because Chicago will be paying his contract out, which is large. Right?
High school kids watch a ton of NBA. Does Holberg become a Pariah for young kids because of Butler and Wade? Especially in the city which is most important to our recruiting?
Not sure i'd rush to Hoiberg if available
Friendly reminder for anyone looking at Hoiberg, if you're a big emphasizer of the NCAAT on resumes, he never really did much despite some high ish seeds in the dance. Also only one 2nd place finish in B12 (1sts reserved for Self).
This isn't to say I'm anti-Hoiberg by any means, just trying to make sure we pick nits on all candidates equally :thumb:
This isn't to say I'm anti-Hoiberg by any means, just trying to make sure we pick nits on all candidates equally :thumb:
They do. Archie was an assistant at Ohio State and Arizona prior to coming to Dayton.
Keatts, as I have mentioned before, was an assistant at Louisville for Pitino and was known for strong recruiting skills. Prior to that while at Hargrave Military Academy, he coached 20 different eventual NBA players.
As for Martin, other than Charlie Moore, he has not had a single Chicago recruit and this includes his time at Tennessee. I don't know if you've read previous pages on this thread, but his current class is 29th in the country which is a far cry from being known as a consistent ace recruiter. And once again, Martin got zero tournament wins with two MCDAA on his team.
They have assistant coaching experience recruiting high major guys, but then again John Groce was once considered the best recruiting assistant coach in the business. Groce may have a better recruiting resume as an assistant. Keatts or Archie may come in and blow the doors off in recruiting, but we've seen there is a difference in being a head coach and an assistant coach. There's no question that Cuonzo Martin is the safer more sure fire pick when it comes to recruiting.
Heard a few things this morning that Hoiberg has had it with Garpax and that he's thought of just stepping away and see what comes up for the following year.
Garpax is what really needs to go!
Absolutely agree.
Well considering a lot are still wanting Martin for some reason doubt this will change their mind. Apparently as long as they have Midwest ties that's all that is needed to recruit here. Martin has won 2 NCAA and 2 Nit games in his 9 year career and that's it. Yet many are still calling for him. Both NCAA came in the same year.
I would say yes to Hoiberg if you take out his first year he was 46-26 in conference and
99-40 overall in 4 years that is almost 25 wins per year!! He made 4 straight NCAA appearances too. I think you could get him pretty cheap maybe 2-2.5mm as he will be paid the rest from the Bulls for two years. I would take him over Martin and Keatts but not over Marshall.
99-40 overall in 4 years that is almost 25 wins per year!! He made 4 straight NCAA appearances too. I think you could get him pretty cheap maybe 2-2.5mm as he will be paid the rest from the Bulls for two years. I would take him over Martin and Keatts but not over Marshall.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
I enjoyed watching ISU when Hoiberg was there.
Fast paced, really move it.
But they didn't play much defense.
Think that is why they bowed out early in the tourney pretty much every year.
So, while I enjoyed the games, I don't want him.
Fast paced, really move it.
But they didn't play much defense.
Think that is why they bowed out early in the tourney pretty much every year.
So, while I enjoyed the games, I don't want him.
Just say no to Cuonzo
I'd take Hoiberg and Keatts over Martin any day I just have this feeling he is the better recruiting version of Groce!! He can recruit but I think he has proven he isn't a good X's and O's coach at all. I'd rather get a decent recruiter but an excellent coach like Marshall or Keatts.
I'd take Hoiberg and Keatts over Martin any day I just have this feeling he is the better recruiting version of Groce!! He can recruit but I think he has proven he isn't a good X's and O's coach at all. I'd rather get a decent recruiter but an excellent coach like Marshall or Keatts.
No Marshall. He's not what is needed for a rebuild. Maybe he could move to an established P6 program but he doesn't seem to be a rebuilder. Just don't think he's a fit right now.
I like Keatts. High major recruiting experience, has accomplished turnarounds where he's gone (quickly) and would probably have a good chance to keep most of the incoming class.
Hoiberg supposedly doesnt like recruiting and his name is probably mud in Chicago right now. Not what we need either.
Cuonzo seems to recruit pretty well but then doesn't do much with the talent. Sound familiar?
His front office has never given him a chance in the NBA. I'm lukewarm on Hoiberg too, but ice cold on GarPax.
TownieMatt
CU Expat
- Chicago
I've had my fingers crossed that somehow Hoiberg would fall into our laps. But watching the Bulls self destruct last night also made me wonder if he'll be disliked in Chicago to the point where recruit becomes a challenge. Or if he'll even want to stick around the area if he gets canned.
Regardless, I dug into his recruiting record at Iowa State (via 247sports)
2011 - 74th nationally, 8th in Big 12
2012 - 41st nationally, 4th in Big 12
2013 - 37th nationally, 4th in Big 12
2014 - 115th nationally, 9th in Big 12
2015 - 75th nationally, 10 in Big 12
Certainly nothing to write home about, although he seems to have built his success on those two decent 2012/2013 classes. I still think pairing Hoiberg with the right assistants to recruit Chicago could be really successful. All that being said, I think there's almost no chance Hoiberg comes here.
Foggy Notion
- San Francisco
I don't think any other coach would have done better than Byron on the Kobe retirement tour last year. Plus the Lakers are looking a lot worse now than at the beginning of the season.
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