Also this team would be even better if it had Kendrick Nunn, don't forget about that. Just another reminder that Groce has gone through a ton of misfortune between players getting injured, players de-committing, and guys getting in trouble. Yes, all these things happen all over the country. For a good, stable program these things are only minor speed bumps. But for a program trying to rebuild they seem like mountains. If he gets in the tournament then you have to give him a chance to build some momentum.
2017 Coaching Carousel
- Status
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
Henson inherited a program in even worse shape than Groce did. Henson had also been to a FF prior to being hired at UIUC. There's very little comparison here. Despite our current 3 game win streak against teams that will finish in the bottom half of the conference, Groce has not yet shown a tremendous amount of coaching ability in the 5 years he's been at Illinois.
Yes, you can. The 3.5 years prior to this stretch are all the justification you need if you want to part ways with him. The injuries stunk last year, but we still looked woefully underprepared a lot of the time.
That said, we still have games to play, so we can re-visit this.
It's incredibly premature, so definitely fairly crazy. There's really not that many similarities, comparing records so loosely ignores a lot of factors.
The Worm
- CHICAGO, IL
You should be mad at Weber, IMO. He was handed the golden ticket built up by three previous tenures and managed to muck it up, much like he is doing now at K-State.
What we can agree on is that Groce is not John Calipari and able to recruit his way into a 1-2 year turn around with multiple future NBA all-stars.
Groce inherited a poorly constructed roster and had some costly recruiting misses in the first few classes (we all know each one, starting with DJax). To try and fill immediate voids caused by those early misses, he took transfers that have mostly been a total failure. And, last, but not least, he has had to deal with injuries that have caused a significant ripple effect in recruiting and on-court performance during these past 5 years.
Moving forward, it looks like the roster construction and talent levels are finally showing signs of being upper echelon B1G caliber, which should make coaching easier. Not to mention, FINALLY having a competent point guard has made a dramatic difference.
For those saying people have lowered their standards if they feel keeping Groce is the right thing, I would disagree. Obviously all the data of his tenure paints a clear picture on paper, but there was a previous coaching tenure and many fixable circumstances that account for most of that.
You are right, still a lot of work to be done before this conversation means anything so I'll wait and see if we can actually win out. It's just funny that 99.9% of fans said Groce either makes the tournament or gets kicked to the curb. But here we are and many people don't have the same attitude. Maybe they will think differently if we actually get to the tourney. Winning cures all.
Agreed. I don't think it's fair to assume that Groce-led teams will ALWAYS be mediocre if he stays. Like players, coaches can get better too. I think between the freshmen this year and next year's class the pieces may finally be coming together.
BirdDog9048
The Chief Lives
- Chicago, IL
I think some people made up their minds after the blowouts in January, and are now having trouble coming to grips with the fact that it's still possible for this Groce-led team to make the tournament.
PhillyIllini
- Los Angeles
I'm sorry, but you're blatantly ignoring facts and creating an alternate reality around excuses that don't hold water over the course of 5 consecutive seasons. As a fanbase, we shouldn't be writing off HALF A DECADE of basketball due to costly recruiting misses (which happen to demonstrate my point even further), poorly constructed rosters, and injuries.
Here's a fact: John Groce is 33-52 in Big Ten Conference play (.388) in his five years as the Illini Head Coach.
I was at the Maui Invitational 4 years ago and had as much excitement as anyone at that time, but that has been disproven by cold, hard results (or the lack thereof) on the hardwood over John Groce's tenure at ILL. If there is no NCAA tournament this year, it's absolutely and unequivocally time to move on. If we do make the tournament, Groce darn well better produce at a higher level than 9-9 or 8-10 in the B1G -- especially in what has been a historically DOWN year for the conference -- because squeaking in perennially as a mid-tier B1G team does not equal success as a head coach at a program such as ILL.
Illinifan1951
- Southeastern Illinois
After tonight's game Coach Groce has a 36-52 (.409) record in his first 5 seasons in Big Ten Conference play.
After his first 5 seasons of coaching in the Big Ten Coach Henson had a record of 35-55 (.389).
Giving him more than 5 years sure did work out well.
After his first 5 seasons of coaching in the Big Ten Coach Henson had a record of 35-55 (.389).
Giving him more than 5 years sure did work out well.
PhillyIllini
- Los Angeles
Sorry -- correction to my post above, he's 36-52 in B1G play through 5 seasons. Doesn't really change my point. He has ZERO winning seasons (best season was 9-9 in 2014-15) and is on track to keep that streak alive this year.
A lot of people on this forum like to argue that ILL is a "top 15 or 20" NCAA job - just below the tier of blue bloods and 1b's of the coaching world. Guess what? Teams that are arguably that great of landing spots for coaches don't settle for 5 consecutive sub or equal .500 seasons to kick off a new coach's tenure at that school. If you're happy comparing this coach's run to one that happened nearly 40 years ago, by all means go ahead but I won't settle for that type of program.
Last edited:
Re: the Groce/Whitman pic, it sure looks like it's all over but the shouting.
Which of our blowouts against every upper-echelon team we've played makes you think that? We've beaten exactly one sort-of-good team (in a historically bad Big Ten) twice in Northwestern. We've gotten absolutely rolled every time we played a really good team.
What you call "fixable circumstances", I call "excuses". I've seen this movie before. I know how it ends.
Henson was 37-53. Finished 7th 3 times and 6th 2 times. Your point is the same, though.
OrangeAndBlues
- Indianapolis
In a completely different era of college basketball. It's over. Groce is coaching for his next job. This is the first Big Ten win streak in YEARS and that is unacceptable. A few wins here just helps build some team chemistry that will help the next coach.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
Yes, as with so much from 1980, that is immediately applicable to 2016.
A lot of people are forgetting that the way this team has played all year fits the same bill of all of Groce's teams. Mediocre/bad with a couple of okay wins throughout the year. Then get a little hot in Feb to maybe sneak into the tourney. Yeah it's great that Groce has gotten the guys to play hard at the end of the year. It's what you want. It's the other 85% of the year that makes a huge portion of Illini fans want him gone. It's been the same narrative this year and will continue to be the same narrative as long as he is head coach.
OrangeAndBlues
- Indianapolis
Couldn't have put it better. He gawn. Excited to see who we get next.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I feel bad and a little unfair feeling this way, but making the Tournament doesn't affect how I feel about Groce. I won't be any more confident than he can get this program to a spot where it is consistently a top 25 program, and I don't think a late season burst onto the Bubble (why we fired our previous coach, no?) should erase a wealth of evidence that our ceiling under him is sneaking into the Tournament after sweating through Selection Sunday.
I like John Groce, and if he's retained, I will support him through next season, too. However, I think it's pretty obvious that we need to try to change direction going forward.
With that said, this winning is sure fun, and I would never be the type of fan to ever root against my team because I think it will help us in the long run to fire our coach. GO ILLINI, beat Sparty!
I like John Groce, and if he's retained, I will support him through next season, too. However, I think it's pretty obvious that we need to try to change direction going forward.
With that said, this winning is sure fun, and I would never be the type of fan to ever root against my team because I think it will help us in the long run to fire our coach. GO ILLINI, beat Sparty!
It doesn't matter what we think.... Whitman will retain him, extend him one year if need be, but he won't let him go. AGAIN, I'M NOT SAYING I WANT HIM TO STAY! I'm just saying that Whitman isn't firing him. The decision would already have to be made and I just don't see it happening.
OrangeAndBlues
- Indianapolis
Decision would already have to be made? That's just silly. He's not firing him midseason. It will happen after the BTT.
This is just false.
Just curious when I ask this. So it looks like Cal may not get into the NCAAT. If the Illini get in the tournament, and Whitman decides to fire Groce anyway after a loss in the NCAAT, would you still want Cuonzo to be the replacement coach?
my scenario was based on this http://www.unf.edu/~jcoleman/dance.htm
my scenario was based on this http://www.unf.edu/~jcoleman/dance.htm
Last edited by a moderator:
I at least like the fact that Groce and his players are working to make the decision as difficult as possible for Whitman. This isn't like Weber's last season where it seemed like everyone just collapsed in emotional exhaustion.
This is to Groce's and the team's credit for blocking out the noise. It's also to Whitman's credit in keeping a lid on media leaks regarding his intentions and minimizing the noise unlike Thomas vis a vis Weber.
When making a hire/fire decision you can't look at just a few games. You have to look at the whole body of work. But in Groce's case making the NCAAs or not completely changes the narrative of his coaching tenure, and whether they make the NCAAs will be determined by these next 3+ games.
There is a big difference between missing the Tourney four seasons in a row and making the Tourney the year after a Bataan Death March-esque injury-riddled torture session of a season, with a darn good recruiting class coming in.
I'm rooting for Groce and team to make Whitman's decision really easy. Win out the regular season, win a couple in the BTT, win a couple in the NCAAs and look forward to Tilman and co. debuting next season.
This is to Groce's and the team's credit for blocking out the noise. It's also to Whitman's credit in keeping a lid on media leaks regarding his intentions and minimizing the noise unlike Thomas vis a vis Weber.
When making a hire/fire decision you can't look at just a few games. You have to look at the whole body of work. But in Groce's case making the NCAAs or not completely changes the narrative of his coaching tenure, and whether they make the NCAAs will be determined by these next 3+ games.
There is a big difference between missing the Tourney four seasons in a row and making the Tourney the year after a Bataan Death March-esque injury-riddled torture session of a season, with a darn good recruiting class coming in.
I'm rooting for Groce and team to make Whitman's decision really easy. Win out the regular season, win a couple in the BTT, win a couple in the NCAAs and look forward to Tilman and co. debuting next season.
I think we all believed that it was NCAA tourney or bust this year and I agree with this sentiment. However, what is so frustrating to me is that "IF" and that's a big if, we happen to make the NCAA tourney it will be by the skin of our teeth. IMO with the talent and experience this team has, we should presently be discussing what seed we will get, not whether we will get in or not. Again, another reason why I feel that Groce shouldn't be retained next year.
- Status