+1000 ...but he has to make Big Dance this year
2017 Coaching Carousel
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+1000 ...but he has to make Big Dance this year
Bingo !
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
I am assuming that those who have us "in" do their bracket as if today was selection sunday. In other words, we still have lots of opportunities to fall out of those brackets. But I don't know this for a fact.
It seems that there are two ways to fill out a bracket if you are one of these self-made bracketologists.
1) As if today was the end of the year
2) Taking your best guess today as to what selection sunday will look like.
Both have merit and they are wildly different.
Even if the decision had already been made, you would not know it. Very few coaches get fired midseason, especially if their team is over .500 and there are no off the court issues. Very rare.
The assertion that Whitman would make (or would have made) an announcement before the end of the season, no matter what the decision, continues to be puzzling indeed.
The only way I would keep Groce around is if he fired at least 1 assistant coach and replaced him with the best X's and O's coach they can find. Enough of this motion offense that takes 3 years to learn. Also, Groce would have to be extended a minimum of 2 years. You give Groce the same type of money he is making now but do not include a buyout clause. At this point Groce has little to no negotiating power.
Either a firing or an extension has to happen the day after Illinois plays their last game of the season. Its obvious Mark Smith is waiting around to see what happens with Groce or his replacement.
Either a firing or an extension has to happen the day after Illinois plays their last game of the season. Its obvious Mark Smith is waiting around to see what happens with Groce or his replacement.
The Worm
- CHICAGO, IL
Has it really taken 2-3 years for TJL to learn the offense? Maybe the issue with the offense was not having the proper PG talent to run it effectively in the B1G.
89illinigrad
- Chicago
Unfortunately some of that experience totally disappeared during the first half of the BIG (Abrams and Thorne, in particular).
It's not surprising that our offense has started to look a whole lot better now that Abrams is starting to hit his 3"s again.
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skyIdub
"I can't tell you. Secret."
Well, regardless of what I, you, or anyone thinks of Groce's coaching chops, this team is playing thier a$$es off for him. I think that's huge. I know they are playing for themselves, the school, their future...etc. as well, but you absolutely have to give Groce credit for this season not completely swirling into the sewer.
The last three games prove to me that this team is very capable of running off 6-7 wins in this Big10. It is very different than the schizophrenic mess from earlier this year. The youth is responding, the seniors and super seniors are responding, and they aren't doing it despite Groce, they are doing it with his direction.
I still believe it's NCAA or walking papers, but the plus size lady is still in the green room practicing her high notes.
The last three games prove to me that this team is very capable of running off 6-7 wins in this Big10. It is very different than the schizophrenic mess from earlier this year. The youth is responding, the seniors and super seniors are responding, and they aren't doing it despite Groce, they are doing it with his direction.
I still believe it's NCAA or walking papers, but the plus size lady is still in the green room practicing her high notes.
An announcement with regards to Groce returning or not will happen after the last game of the season. It will not necessarily happen the day after, but shortly after. IF Groce is retained, the announcement will not include an extension. If Groce receives an extension, that will happen later in the summer at a quieter time.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
This feels right to me.
The fact that we haven't had the right PG forever is on Groce, but things certainly look better with one. Thank goodness for TJL.
Deleted member 14522
D
Guest
I love how some on this board want Cuanzo Martin... His team is just as much on the bubble as we are. I am hoping that this team continues to fight and get wins as the season comes to a close.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
This is absolutely true, but the big question is why it took until the last half of February to happen? Play with this intensity all season and they'd likely have 3 or 4 more wins.
Body of work, not just one season (or parts thereof). It's the same reason why this little streak we're on doesn't change my perception of Groce.
Having said that, I'm not really in on Martin, I'd much rather see Bennett or Krystowiak.
skyIdub
"I can't tell you. Secret."
Agreed, but if this little streak morphs into the NCAA after a run at the BTT, we'll get a chance to see this next class under Groce. JW clearly is rooting for Groce to right the ship, according to that hug.
oops..."their"...missed the edit window!
I'm impressed by it. It's a pleasant surprise for sure. But we can't use this to his credit and ignore the previous collapses/lack of heart finishes in this regime, namely the end of season stretch culminating in that absolute embarrassment at Alabama.
skyIdub
"I can't tell you. Secret."
For sure, it's not a pass. For me, it doesn't amount to much more than a good finish...unless it finishes in the Sweet 16. Although a BTT trophy and one win in the Dance could persuade me.
+1
I am enjoying these Ws, and want nothing more for this team then to make the tourney, but imo this recent success is in spite of the coaching staff's weaknesses as opposed to being due to their strengths.
Get these seniors their tourney appearance, and attract a new staff without having to sell the job as a full rebuild. Win/win.
As much as I've enjoyed these last few games, it's hard to forget that this same team was nearly run off its home floor by a 14-15 Penn St team a mere 16 days ago.
I want things to be fixed, and I'm generally an optimist by nature, but history suggests we're due for a major letdown.
I want things to be fixed, and I'm generally an optimist by nature, but history suggests we're due for a major letdown.
skyIdub
"I can't tell you. Secret."
Right now, it's time to move on, at this moment. That hug is JW knowing that 6-7 more wins, and then it won't be, and I think he's rooting for that. That's all i'm reading into it. IMHO, if you are simply waiting to replace a guy, you can celebrate his success, but I don't think you grab a guy like that. It's just my .02.
There's always a lot of talk about that moment a coach finally messes up too much to be brought back. I think if we dont win 3 more games, Groce's point will be an overall lackluster career--i.e. no real turning point (barring really bad losses to MSU and RU or some other awful performance elsewhere).
Conversely, is it that crazy to think we could have seen an opposite point with this win streak? We aren't there yet, but rattle off three more wins and I think it'll be hard to get rid of Groce. Improvement earlier than mid Feb is obviously a better goal, but righting the ship before its too late is something that shouldn't be discredited so quickly (see 11-12 collapse).
Conversely, is it that crazy to think we could have seen an opposite point with this win streak? We aren't there yet, but rattle off three more wins and I think it'll be hard to get rid of Groce. Improvement earlier than mid Feb is obviously a better goal, but righting the ship before its too late is something that shouldn't be discredited so quickly (see 11-12 collapse).
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
If John Groce is a mutual fund, and that fund has underperformed the benchmark every year for five straight years, you sell that fund. If you look at one quarter, and see it doing well, you don't then forget about the five previous years -- you sell the fund. Even if, in the two weeks right before you sit down to re-balance your portfolio, the fund suddenly goes up a few bucks per share, you STILL SELL THE FUND.
Don't use a recency bias to think that THIS TIME things are different, or that he's suddenly figured things out. He's coaching the same players in the exact same way he has for five years. We've seen the results over the long haul. Don't let a rare winning streak convince you that anything has changed. If it takes until his first recruiting class reaches the end of their senior season to have them finally play hard, he has failed at his job. SELL, SELL, SELL!
Don't use a recency bias to think that THIS TIME things are different, or that he's suddenly figured things out. He's coaching the same players in the exact same way he has for five years. We've seen the results over the long haul. Don't let a rare winning streak convince you that anything has changed. If it takes until his first recruiting class reaches the end of their senior season to have them finally play hard, he has failed at his job. SELL, SELL, SELL!
haasi
- New York
I agree about 95%. I think the only counterargument is that we've been mediocre/bad for so long in large part because we've been a disaster at PG, and it looks like that problem may finally be going away. Most of our PG disaster is due to Groce's recruiting overconfidence and poor planning getting a decent backup, and a little bit is due to injuries and other bad luck. I don't forgive Groce's roster mismanagement in any way shape or form, but I do think that we might have gotten a very extended bad but not totally representative sample of what he can offer, and might get a better sense now watching his offenses competently run.
Again - I agree for the most part. But there's a potentially legitimate reason to think things might improve.
Just A Thought!
Is it possible that JG was initially to slow by 4 weeks to give more playing time to TJL and KN and that is what this whole "Should he stay or should he go" discussion really boils down to? He inherited a mess, missed on some big fish and was racked with injuries. Had some seniors playing above their pay grade to start the season and wasn't sure when to pull the plug. If he has finally figured it out and has an above average class coming in do we blow it up and take a chance on 1) Loosing the next class 2) Getting the next "Sure Thing" if we can 3) Then watch JG thrive somewhere else after we trained him? I know a lot of posters have had enough but if he has figured it out, has the team playing like a true, cohesive unit and somehow wins a few games in the BTT I say we take a step back, do some deep breathing exercises and let JW do his job! I'm not convinced either way but if the team continues to play like this then the proof is in the pudding. Everybody that is seeing court time has improved and is competing. Enjoy it for however long it lasts!!
Is it possible that JG was initially to slow by 4 weeks to give more playing time to TJL and KN and that is what this whole "Should he stay or should he go" discussion really boils down to? He inherited a mess, missed on some big fish and was racked with injuries. Had some seniors playing above their pay grade to start the season and wasn't sure when to pull the plug. If he has finally figured it out and has an above average class coming in do we blow it up and take a chance on 1) Loosing the next class 2) Getting the next "Sure Thing" if we can 3) Then watch JG thrive somewhere else after we trained him? I know a lot of posters have had enough but if he has figured it out, has the team playing like a true, cohesive unit and somehow wins a few games in the BTT I say we take a step back, do some deep breathing exercises and let JW do his job! I'm not convinced either way but if the team continues to play like this then the proof is in the pudding. Everybody that is seeing court time has improved and is competing. Enjoy it for however long it lasts!!
OrangeAndBlues
- Indianapolis
No. See: every other post about body of work vs. recency bias.
FWIW, Keatts update, he finished conference slate at 15-3 and won another regular season conference title. I intend to go through and update the coaches spreadsheet post-regular season.
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