2018 Off Season Thread

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#476      

EyeoftheIllini

EyeoftheIllini
EyeoftheIllini
Now Underwood has to bring in players with better talent who can help create that culture change. It won't happen over night, but so far I like what he's bringing in this year. With basically just Kipper and AJ as upper class men, for better or worse this team will now be Frazier, DWill, Ebo and the incoming class's team. They can make what they want of it, and hopefully BU is getting the guys who want to make it a winner.
 
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#477      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
NeaforThree said:
I was mostly referring to how freshman both this year and next were going to pass TJL up.
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Again, if you want to talk about skills and talent, talk about skills and talent. Frazier has more skills and talent than TJL, and Ayo is a 5* recruit.

Criticizing "culture" and then rationalizing it as skills and talent, is totally disrespectful to players like Finke or even Mark Smith and the facts about Frazier, Black, Finke, Mark Smith and Matic just prove that your statement about the connection between "recruited by BU" (some of the false nevertheless) and "culture" doesn't hold any water.

In order for BU to become successful, he has to greatly improve talent/skills on the roster. The emphasis will actually be fall recruiting (IMO) but when you have tremendous gaps in the late spring/summer you have no other choice but trying to fill those gaps, often taking some chance with projects, which is what is happening this year and what happened last year as well.
 
#478      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
NeaforThree said:
One only has to look at one of BU's mentors in Bob Huggins to see what can be achieved when players 100% buy into a coach and system/culture. He rarely gets 4-stars even but they still outplay much more (recruiting star-wise) talented teams.
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That is the same Thuggins, ohhh... I am sorry, Huggins, who has been greatly criticized for creating a thug culture in his programs, and whose Cincinnati team was heavily criticized on culture, off-court problems, and constantly disrespecting and talking trash on opponents, including to our own Illini, before Dee & Deron went out and shut their mouth beating them to a pulp. :)

Whenever we hire a new coach, we find new love for their "mentors," including developing a very strong affection for Keady, Matta, Huggins, etc. Of course, with current basketball dynamics, all coaches have multiple influences in their past (good or bad) but history shows that success depends on their own merit rather than their mentors, including coaches from some great coaching trees and programs (e.g., Izzo, Coach K, etc.).
 
#479      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
NeaforThree said:
Some players bought into the culture and system that BU was selling and some players didn't. Those players are now transferring. We'll most likely be better for it, considering they weren't the biggest contributors for the future. It's not that hard
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Yeah, mysteriously and coincidentally the ones with better talent and skills always buy into the "culture" whereas players with less skills (e.g., Finke, Matic, Smith) are usually the scapegoats who are criticized to death for lack of "culture." I agree, it's not that hard. :)
 
#480      

Ga65

G
Ga65
I don't know where all the attitude criticism comes from on these players. When did you not see them give less than 100% effort? This is a two way street and giving the coaches a complete pass is wrong. If they have better players next year then the coaches have done their job. If they don't then they haven't done their job they just poured kerosene on the dumpster fire.
 
#481      

LBZ

L
LBZ
Obelix said:
Yeah, mysteriously and coincidentally the ones with better talent and skills always buy into the "culture" whereas players with less skills (e.g., Finke, Matic, Smith) are usually the scapegoats who are criticized to death for lack of "culture." I agree, it's not that hard. :)
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I think some of the culture issue lays in the aspect that the team was not naturally amped to play when the lights came on so to speak. Remember Underwood saying he had not seen a team like that & that had been going on for some years.

Further, have been curious if some of Mark Smiths issue was being torn between his Dad & Coach U? Just from reading some things posted, that could drastically change a players buy in when things get difficult.
 
#484      

haasi

haasi
New York
haasi
When Underwood is talking about “Culture” deficiencies, there’s no indication he’s talking about discipline/personal conduct issues. He’s talking about playing culture - aggressive mindset, insane effort, high motor, killer instinct, all that stuff. So yes- if he ever insinuated finke was not a culture fit, I think that would be the implication, not that finke ever did anything wrong- as far as I know, finke has been an exemplary citizen. Now, whether Underwood’s issue is ultimately a culture issue or a talent issue, hard to say. Presumably both. you need guys who have a combo of sufficient talent (and the type of talent that the system requires) and the right mindset. Maybe Finke wasn’t a great fit in terms of talent level/skill set, probably also didn’t have the killer mentality that Underwood is looking for.


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#485      

NeaforThree

NeaforThree
NeaforThree
haasi said:
When Underwood is talking about “Culture” deficiencies, there’s no indication he’s talking about discipline/personal conduct issues. He’s talking about playing culture - aggressive mindset, insane effort, high motor, killer instinct, all that stuff. So yes- if he ever insinuated finke was not a culture fit, I think that would be the implication, not that finke ever did anything wrong- as far as I know, finke has been an exemplary citizen. Now, whether Underwood’s issue is ultimately a culture issue or a talent issue, hard to say. Presumably both. you need guys who have a combo of sufficient talent (and the type of talent that the system requires) and the right mindset. Maybe Finke wasn’t a great fit in terms of talent level/skill set, probably also didn’t have the killer mentality that Underwood is looking for.


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:thumb: Exactly what I was trying to say. Playing culture is what I think some our transferring players did not buy into, as Groce didn't coach that killer instinct, will to win into his players. BU noted this a couple times this season in fact.

In terms of overall representation, Finke, TJL, and Mark have been great ambassadors for the UI off the court and in the classroom, but for our program right now, thats not all that we need from our players.
 
#486      

NB2D

N
NB2D
NeaforThree said:
Some players bought into the culture and system that BU was selling and some players didn't. Those players are now transferring. We'll most likely be better for it, considering they weren't the biggest contributors for the future. It's not that hard :thumb:
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Bruce Weber had trouble with the players when he came here and had a funeral for Bill Self. Brad Underwood is having a funeral for the players instead.
 
#487      

NeaforThree

NeaforThree
NeaforThree
NB2D said:
Bruce Weber had trouble with the players when he came here and had a funeral for Bill Self. Brad Underwood is having a funeral for the players instead.
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Lol it's a bit easier to gently push players of Finke, TJL ilk out the door than it would've been Deron, Dee or Augie. Bruce would've been ran outta town the minute that happened and rightfully so.

But once again it shows the extreme difficulties that coaches face when coming into a new program and establishing their culture and system. We won a whole lotta games that season and Bruce STILL had trouble winning Dee and Augie over (Deron bought in pretty quick I feel like)
 
#488      

gailmoore1949

gailmoore1949
gailmoore1949
wow, I figured some would go, but not most of the team. The replacements so far look to be better than what we had, but it is hard to imagine what we will look like next year with so many new people trying to learn the system. I wish the best of luck to Finke and Tejon, gonna miss both of them. Go Illini
 
#489      

Mike

Mike
C-U Townie
Mike
gailmoore1949 said:
wow, I figured some would go, but not most of the team. The replacements so far look to be better than what we had, but it is hard to imagine what we will look like next year with so many new people trying to learn the system. I wish the best of luck to Finke and Tejon, gonna miss both of them. Go Illini
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Will miss them both and hope them the best. They were not great players for us, but are decent role-players and class act people. Good luck Mike & Tejon.
 
#490      

Mike

Mike
C-U Townie
Mike
Ga65 said:
I don't know where all the attitude criticism comes from on these players. When did you not see them give less than 100% effort? This is a two way street and giving the coaches a complete pass is wrong. If they have better players next year then the coaches have done their job. If they don't then they haven't done their job they just poured kerosene on the dumpster fire.
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The problem imho is that our coach simply demanded far more execution than some of them could give. God they played hard a bunch of games, but sometimes that's just not enough. It's silly to think our recent veteran player losses will immediately help our team, but at some point settling with loosing is an embarrassment.
 
#491      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Mike said:
The problem imho is that our coach simply demanded far more execution than some of them could give. God they played hard a bunch of games, but sometimes that's just not enough. It's silly to think our recent veteran player losses will immediately help our team, but at some point settling with loosing is an embarrassment.
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There is zero evidence that their inability to execute was attributed lack of culture rather than simply lack of skills.
 
#492      

SescIllini

SescIllini
SescIllini
I'm sure there is a forthcoming article on how the transferred players didn't buy in. It comes a point where you cut bait.

How much of yourself do you want to fight the past? These players collectively lead to 0 NCAA tourney games and I believe never finished above .500 in the BIG.

Like Tejon but he can't hit a free throw or outside shot. Finke can't defend, slow feet, can't rebound against BIG.

Best for all to move on.
 
#493      

Emerson Bigguns

Emerson Bigguns
Emerson Bigguns
SescIllini said:
I'm sure there is a forthcoming article on how the transferred players didn't buy in. It comes a point where you cut bait.

How much of yourself do you want to fight the past? These players collectively lead to 0 NCAA tourney games and I believe never finished above .500 in the BIG.

Like Tejon but he can't hit a free throw or outside shot. Finke can't defend, slow feet, can't rebound against BIG.

Best for all to move on.
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I agree. neither Finke or Lucas would be starting caliber players for a B1G contender. Both bring some things to the table. Lucas- ball handling & defense Finke ability to stretch a defense. Both also have some major flaws: Lucas cant shoot... from anywhere... Finke can't rebound or defend his position. They would be usable bench pieces, but neither would be likely to start.
If, (and I concede it's a big IF) they can replace these guys with players with the potential to be high end B1G players, it's addition by subtraction. It may hurt in the short term, but the sooner this roster is stocked with legitimate B1G athletes, the sooner the Illini will approach the teams we had 10-20 years ago.
 
#494      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Obelix said:
There is zero evidence that their inability to execute was attributed lack of culture rather than simply lack of skills.
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FWLIW, I agree with how the other guys defined culture. Good luck with demands for evidence.
 
#495      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
Second and Chalmers said:
While clearly Whitman is giving his coaches the freedom to think long-term, and that's a positive in a vacuum, you start to wonder if he's tacitly or even explicitly encouraging this kind of turnover.
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No, I honestly don't wonder that. I think all he has done is told these coaches that they have a fairly long leash and are free to play the long game and make it a full rebuild if they deem it necessary, and both have now deemed it necessary.

I'd be surprised if Whitman was the micromanaging type like that.
 
#496      

Mike

Mike
C-U Townie
Mike
Obelix said:
There is zero evidence that their inability to execute was attributed lack of culture rather than simply lack of skills.
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I would vote lack of ability fwiw.

IMHO Leron / Kipper / Trent had the ability, but the other guys were either too young or simply not good enough to play B1G.
 
#497      

EJ33

E
San Francisco
EJ33
sacraig said:
No, I honestly don't wonder that. I think all he has done is told these coaches that they have a fairly long leash and are free to play the long game and make it a full rebuild if they deem it necessary, and both have now deemed it necessary.

I'd be surprised if Whitman was the micromanaging type like that.
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Agreed. One thing I can't imagine Whitman doing is pounding his coaches about short term results. He wants long term, sustainable success.
 
#498      

NeaforThree

NeaforThree
NeaforThree
Mike said:
I would vote lack of ability fwiw.

IMHO Leron / Kipper / Trent had the ability, but the other guys were either too young or simply not good enough to play B1G.
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I think Mark Smith had the ability, but either lost all confidence in B1G play or did not respond well at all to BU's style of coaching (which happens in college basketball all the time)
 
#499      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Calvin said:
FWLIW, I agree with how the other guys defined culture. Good luck with demands for evidence.
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I am making no demands, simply stating that there is zero evidence of luck of culture, which is a convenient way of taking shots at departing players.
 
#500      

JFGsCoffeeMug

JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
JFGsCoffeeMug
Obelix said:
I am making no demands, simply stating that there is zero evidence of luck of culture, which is a convenient way of taking shots at departing players.
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Underwood had concerns about our team culture the entire year. Multiple articles were written about it. This is just one of them. I wouldn't blame this issue on any one player. It's hard to change culture. On occasion, drastic measures are necessary to even have a chance.
 
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