2023 MLB Playoffs

#26      

EyeoftheIllini

EyeoftheIllini
EyeoftheIllini
Roundball Sage said:
What I’m referencing here is that when the biggest and best baseball markets in America like Chicago, New York, So Cal Anaheim, St. Louis, and Boston do not make the playoffs... MLB suffers.

You can still have interesting and spirited baseball playoff games even if it’s the smallest markets in the World Series. But the National interest level is not there and certainly not in those major markets and baseball hotbeds.

The World Series is just at a different level when the baseball-passionate cities are involved. Do we really want to see The Trash Can Bangers in the Series again? And no, they are just not a baseball hotbed in H-Town. But they are the favorite team of City Maintenance and Trash Hauling Workers around the World.

And thankfully, the White Sox put them in their place in 2005. Unfortunately, it’s been the Sox that have played like trash since then.
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I assume by “MLB suffers” that you are primarily speaking about TV ratings, and, if so, that is hard to argue against. A large market or two with a rooting interest will certainly drive up national ratings. How local ratings for cities have varied per year for the last 20 years or so when their team isn’t in the WS. I use that span since I think it was about then when the national ratings for WS accelerated their decline. As an aside, if I’m not mistaken, the WSox— Astros WS you referenced was a fairly early part of that decline.

So are the TV ratings for let’s say Chicago area that much lower when two of your non-legacy teams are in WS versus having one in versus having both from that group — assuming none are Chicago teams? I wonder because though I don’t live there now, I grew up and lived in Chicago area for years and grew up not just a passionate Cubs fan but a passionate baseball fan. And I have no additional desire to watch Yankees or Dodgers in WS than any other team. In fact, they are very low on my list of teams I want to watch in WS.

Going into playoffs, I was rooting for Texas and Arizona to make WS because as a passionate baseball fan, those were the most compelling teams/stories for me Neither team was expected to be good this year (or at least not as good as they were). DBacks have one of the more exciting young players in the game, while Texas has good relatively young players, a SP that turns it around when traded to Texas, and a very accomplished manager who is leaving his imprint on his team in his first year. My third choice would have been Atlanta to see arguably the best player this side of Ohtani. I just really wonder how many fans outside of Dodger fans care that Dodgers won’t be in WS. Sure national TV ratings will likely be lower because of the LA market size, but is the average baseball fan in say New York less likely to watch WS now that Dodgers won’t be in it?
 
#27      

Roundball Sage

R
Roundball Sage
EyeoftheIllini said:
Hate the man, hate the tactics, but THAT was brilliant business on his part.
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Yes, he strong-armed the State into financing a new ballpark for his personal business venture. And got his way.

BUT.... there are reasons to doubt his commitment to the City of Chicago in general... and most certainly, Sox fans in particular. He may have been just nasty enough to move the team to Florida... and then go ahead and move it again out of Tampa when they proved to be such a lousy MLB market.

Does any White Sox fan trust this man? And if so, why?

As for the new-style MLB playoffs.. they are set up just great as being done this year and this should be the system going forward. Only one improvement needed though. The White Sox should get an automatic seed in the playoffs every year because they can't get this on their own under their current ownership. Reward for the fans, not the owner.
 
#28      

Roundball Sage

R
Roundball Sage
EyeoftheIllini said:
I assume by “MLB suffers” that you are primarily speaking about TV ratings, and, if so, that is hard to argue against. A large market or two with a rooting interest will certainly drive up national ratings. How local ratings for cities have varied per year for the last 20 years or so when their team isn’t in the WS. I use that span since I think it was about then when the national ratings for WS accelerated their decline. As an aside, if I’m not mistaken, the WSox— Astros WS you referenced was a fairly early part of that decline.

So are the TV ratings for let’s say Chicago area that much lower when two of your non-legacy teams are in WS versus having one in versus having both from that group — assuming none are Chicago teams? I wonder because though I don’t live there now, I grew up and lived in Chicago area for years and grew up not just a passionate Cubs fan but a passionate baseball fan. And I have no additional desire to watch Yankees or Dodgers in WS than any other team. In fact, they are very low on my list of teams I want to watch in WS.

Going into playoffs, I was rooting for Texas and Arizona to make WS because as a passionate baseball fan, those were the most compelling teams/stories for me Neither team was expected to be good this year (or at least not as good as they were). DBacks have one of the more exciting young players in the game, while Texas has good relatively young players, a SP that turns it around when traded to Texas, and a very accomplished manager who is leaving his imprint on his team in his first year. My third choice would have been Atlanta to see arguably the best player this side of Ohtani. I just really wonder how many fans outside of Dodger fans care that Dodgers won’t be in WS. Sure national TV ratings will likely be lower because of the LA market size, but is the average baseball fan in say New York less likely to watch WS now that Dodgers won’t be in it?
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An all-Texas AL Final is great for the Lone State State but not sure how popular that's going to be Nationally -- except perhaps to see The Trash Can Bangers go down and not get rewarded for their past bad behavior.

Arizona is the surprise entry and they seem to be on a roll. They have yet to lose a game in the post-season. A nice reward for Phoenix-area fans who suffered through horrendous heat all Summer long. Something to do until the Coyotes get rolling.

Rooting interest for most fans is a local and personal thing. You grow up getting hooked on a team and you stay with them even if you move far away. There is a percentage of baseball 'purist' fans that just enjoy the game itself whomever is playing. But they will always be a minority compared to levels of fan interest in their local teams.

Many baseball fans around the Nation are not upset that the Trolley Dodgers wiped out again. Regardless of which sport is playing, when the LA team is on the road the opposition fans will start the chant...'Beat LA! Beat LA!'.

Getting back to the really bad heat this Summer, both Texas and Arizona were roasting and blazing hot and this took a toll on a lot of people there. So let's give them all a nice reward with D-Backs vs. Rangers. And a cool October breeze under a clear starlit Southwestern Sky.
 
#29      

IanKEvans2

IanKEvans2
IanKEvans2
My orientation to Minnesota sports fandom is off to a strong start. Oof that 9th inning was disappointing last night.
 
#30      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
Philly, Dallas, Houston and Phoenix are the 4, 5, 10 and 12 sized TV markets in the country. Atlanta is 8 if they come back and beat Philly.

In terms of metro area population, they’re 7, 4, 5 and 10, with Atlanta 8.

I suspect MLB is perfectly pleased with who’s gotten this far in the playoffs.
 
#32      

splitter

splitter
and not Nebraska
splitter
bdutts said:
He’s a White Sox fan so he’s not going to mention the Cubs by name…
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Why would he put that name on the same lips that he kisses his loved ones with and puts his meals thru? /S
 
#35      

EyeoftheIllini

EyeoftheIllini
EyeoftheIllini
illiniguy said:
You do know that Brooklyn is still part of New York…
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You do know that Dodgers aren’t in Brooklyn any more . . .

I have no doubt that some Brooklyn Dodgers fans kept their allegiance with the team as it took up residency out west. I also have no doubt that some Brooklyn Dodgers fans never got over the betrayal and would never root for the Dodgers. I don’t know many (well really any) Browns fans who became Baltimore fans when they moved out of Cleveland. Then you have some of the faithful dying off, some losing interest in baseball all together and some who were never baseball or Dodger fans at all. I have my doubts that the remaining number of Brooklyn Dodgers fans cheering for the LA incarnation is enough to register any more than a blip.
 
#36      

Se Il Illini

Se Il Illini
Se Il Illini
Ryllini said:
And the cubs went 22 years longer than that.They have won 4 in the past 20. I'm a Cardinals fan and I'd say the Red Sox have as big as legacy if not bigger than the Birds. Consider everything that goes in to it. It is what it is.
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I have witnessed 5 St. Louis Cardinal World Series championships. There is no living Boston Red Sox fan, who has seen more than 4 championships. As a result, I would take the Cardinal legacy over the Boston Red Sox any day of the week. Furthermore, St Louis has 11 World Series Championships. And as you well know that is the second most all time behind the Yankees. I agree that in the past 20 years Boston has had much more success in the World Series. Legacy in my view is not based on a 20 year time frame. On the other hand many younger Cardinal fans boast about the relative success of Cardinal teams. However, they take pause when I point out that St. Louis has exactly 3 championships in the last 55 years. My opinion, simply, is baseball legacy is based on the total history of baseball.
 
#37      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
Se Il Illini said:
I have witnessed 5 St. Louis Cardinal World Series championships. There is no living Boston Red Sox fan, who has seen more than 4 championships. As a result, I would take the Cardinal legacy over the Boston Red Sox any day of the week. Furthermore, St Louis has 11 World Series Championships. And as you well know that is the second most all time behind the Yankees. I agree that in the past 20 years Boston has had much more success in the World Series. Legacy in my view is not based on a 20 year time frame. On the other hand many younger Cardinal fans boast about the relative success of Cardinal teams. However, they take pause when I point out that St. Louis has exactly 3 championships in the last 55 years. My opinion, simply, is baseball legacy is based on the total history of baseball.
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It is an interesting discussion, no question. I think it is really a behind the Yankees who are you going to put on a 2A/2B type circumstance. Part of our Cardinals legacy comes from a similar stretch from 26-46 that Boston has from 04 to present. Our birds had something like 6 titles in that stretch. As far as the past 55 years, we average a title every 11 and them every 13 or so, granted their bulk is more recent. We have more HOF's by far. Believe me, I despise Boston, all of their teams and give me the Yanks over the Sox any day, but they are rich with 9 titles, some mega personalities, an iconic ballpark, and all time games good or bad for them they have been a part of. In conclusion, I'll gladly cave and side with you and gives us the nod on legacy. Go Birds!
 
#39      

Roundball Sage

R
Roundball Sage
EyeoftheIllini said:
You do know that Dodgers aren’t in Brooklyn any more . . .

I have no doubt that some Brooklyn Dodgers fans kept their allegiance with the team as it took up residency out west. I also have no doubt that some Brooklyn Dodgers fans never got over the betrayal and would never root for the Dodgers. I don’t know many (well really any) Browns fans who became Baltimore fans when they moved out of Cleveland.
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Attachment to teams is formed in childhood. Many of us retain those allegiances throughout our lives no matter where we might live.

BUT... when ‘Your’ team moves away it changes you. First, you realize that they are not really Your team but they are owned by someone else. Second, your heart can be broken and you feel betrayed so you might turn your back on them for abandoning you. While others look passed all that and just keep on rooting for them regardless of their ‘betrayal’.

The Cleveland Browns is an interesting case. The Browns of today are not The Browns of yesteryear. The legacy Browns moved away and a whole new team took the Browns logo in a full-start of an actually new franchise. Most Browns fans probably don’t care about the legalese and just treat them as the Old Browns. But they are not. Browns fans of today are truly rooting for a logo and laundry.

Both Brooklyn and Cleveland are examples of some of the most passionate fans in all of sports. They really love/loved their teams and felt them to be part of their community and family lives. But it really is hard to understand why anyone in Brooklyn would still care about the Dodgers. They have been gone for three generations and they left in pursuit of personal riches without regard to Brooklyn fans. A cold-blooded move despite the SoCal warmth.

There is talk of the White Sox moving away from Chicago. Should that happen... I can’t imagine very many South Siders even wanting to give that franchise one more minute of their time. No one should love logo and laundry that much to ignore that kind of fan betrayal.
 
#40      

Se Il Illini

Se Il Illini
Se Il Illini
Ryllini said:
It is an interesting discussion, no question. I think it is really a behind the Yankees who are you going to put on a 2A/2B type circumstance. Part of our Cardinals legacy comes from a similar stretch from 26-46 that Boston has from 04 to present. Our birds had something like 6 titles in that stretch. As far as the past 55 years, we average a title every 11 and them every 13 or so, granted their bulk is more recent. We have more HOF's by far. Believe me, I despise Boston, all of their teams and give me the Yanks over the Sox any day, but they are rich with 9 titles, some mega personalities, an iconic ballpark, and all time games good or bad for them they have been a part of. In conclusion, I'll gladly cave and side with you and gives us the nod on legacy. Go Birds!
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I have no argument. It is all about time frame. I picked 1968 for a specific reason. Because if I had picked 1964, it would be 5 World Series over the course of 59 years which is better statistically than 3 in 55 years. Also when you look at Cardinal history, 6 of the championships came prior to 1950. The following has nothing do with this conversation. I saw this today. Stan Musial was part of 3 World Series championships. The 3 championships came in his first 4 years. Furthermore, Musial retired after the 1963 season, and the Cardinals won in 1964.
 
#41      

Bucktown

B
Bucktown
Roundball Sage said:
Attachment to teams is formed in childhood. Many of us retain those allegiances throughout our lives no matter where we might live.

BUT... when ‘Your’ team moves away it changes you. First, you realize that they are not really Your team but they are owned by someone else. Second, your heart can be broken and you feel betrayed so you might turn your back on them for abandoning you. While others look passed all that and just keep on rooting for them regardless of their ‘betrayal’.

The Cleveland Browns is an interesting case. The Browns of today are not The Browns of yesteryear. The legacy Browns moved away and a whole new team took the Browns logo in a full-start of an actually new franchise. Most Browns fans probably don’t care about the legalese and just treat them as the Old Browns. But they are not. Browns fans of today are truly rooting for a logo and laundry.

Both Brooklyn and Cleveland are examples of some of the most passionate fans in all of sports. They really love/loved their teams and felt them to be part of their community and family lives. But it really is hard to understand why anyone in Brooklyn would still care about the Dodgers. They have been gone for three generations and they left in pursuit of personal riches without regard to Brooklyn fans. A cold-blooded move despite the SoCal warmth.

There is talk of the White Sox moving away from Chicago. Should that happen... I can’t imagine very many South Siders even wanting to give that franchise one more minute of their time. No one should love logo and laundry that much to ignore that kind of fan betrayal.
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Unless everyone moves to Nashville with them.
 
#42      

Roundball Sage

R
Roundball Sage
Bucktown said:
Unless everyone moves to Nashville with them.
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The way the population movement trend is going right now... that just might happen. Lots of Illinois folks now found in Tennessee, the Carolinas, Florida, Arizona.

'Little Chicagos' popping up around the Nation.

And if the Sox do move to Music City... there'll have to be a whole lot of new walk-up music for the players. And most of the players don't even know that kind of music yet.
 
#43      

illiniguy

illiniguy
illiniguy
Roundball Sage said:
And if the Sox do move to Music City... there'll have to be a whole lot of new walk-up music for the players. And most of the players don't even know that kind of music yet.
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70S Banjo GIF
 
#50      

Grandpa

G
Grandpa
texillwek said:
Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about the Texas Rangers?

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I will probably be rooting for them. They eliminated the Astros, and you know that the Astros were somehow cheating.
I wasn't rooting for the D-Bags, so it will probably be the Rangers