Was somewhat surprised that one of the Arizona schools weren’t brought into the B10 fold to include the Phoenix viewing area
Big Ten Tournament 2024-2025
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GrayGhost77
- Centennial, CO
Agree. Especially with so many Midwestern transplants there. When I lived in Phoenix a few years back I went to the GCU bball game and I swear it was 1/3 Illini fans in there. Similarly when I attended Bulls/Suns games and Blackhawks games versus the 'Yotes. Actually at the hockey game the Blackhawks fans easily outnumbered the Coyotes fans.
Realignment v2.1 isn’t about tv viewing area like the v1.x were, it’s about additive brand value for football. Will be interesting to see what v3.x will value.
Yes, exactly. I was someone that really focused on markets and academics for realignment in the 2010s because conference networks like BTN were such an important driver of revenue. That was how the Big Ten could monetize schools like Rutgers and Maryland to great success despite them not having great football brands. That conference network revenue is now irreversibly going down, so the paradigm has shifted almost entirely to marquee football games. The top 2-3 football games that a conference can offer every week are what the networks and streamers value.
The way that Stanford and Cal were twisting in the wind should be a massive wake up call to fans, including our own fan base. If the top academic school in major college sports with arguably the best top to bottom athletic department (Stanford) and the flagship school of the largest population state with that is arguably the top academic public university in the country (Cal), both of which are directly located in a huge market that has disproportionate wealth and power with the proximity of Silicon Valley and is a top place for both athletic recruits and “regular student” recruits for enrollment… then pretty much *anyone* outside of the Michigan/Ohio State/Penn State/USC-level elite football brands are at risk. A large market/top academic/basketball school combo itself isn’t protection anymore. Football value is what matters (and that’s obviously not to our advantage at all).
Joel Goodson
- ties will be resolved
welcome to Loyalty. go to place for Illini debate. been reading the Slant for all things realignment for a loooong time. great site.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I agree with your overall point, but you are underselling our value to make it. Illinois isn’t some mooch on the Big Ten. Athletic revenue from last year, with some select schools for reference:
19. Oregon: $154 million
21. Iowa: $151 million
22. Wisconsin: $150 million
24. Illinois: $148 million
25. Washington: $145 million
26. Nebraska: $143 million
34. Cal: $119 million
Stanford doesn’t report in the same database, but Illinois is closer to Oregon than to Cal by quite a large margin. We have also routinely outclassed both Stanford and Cal in attendance and TV ratings lately. Obviously we aren’t in the OSU class, but we aren’t a lucky version of Oregon State. Things that “don’t matter” in isolation like our state population, market sizes, etc. can still speak to potential. The data is there that Illinois football with a pulse delivers good ratings, and that it can boost ticket sales quickly. I do not think that’s lost to the powers that be. In other words, color me INCREDIBLY skeptical that Iowa State is seen as more valuable to a conference than Illinois because they’ve had a stronger football “brand.”
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I just do not understand why football rules everything.
Each team has 5-7 home games and a bowl game.
Basketball has 15-20 home games and the dance is huge.
Each team has 5-7 home games and a bowl game.
Basketball has 15-20 home games and the dance is huge.
Thank you! I appreciate it!
The sheer viewership is on a completely different level. The Michigan State-Arizona basketball game on Thanksgiving Day was the first regular season basketball game with over 5 million viewers on 15 years… and that was largely due to the holdover audience from the Packers-Lions NFL game before it. In contrast, there were 5 college football games with 5 million viewers on Thanksgiving weekend this year alone.
College football is now the most watched type of program (and I mean *all* programs - not just sports) on all of television outside of the NFL. It has disproportionately greater power on the overall media landscape than even just a few years ago. Hence, college football has more outsized value than ever compared to everything except for the NFL, which is why the Big Ten only took the 4 most valuable football schools from the Pac-12 and passed on Stanford/Cal (whereas the B1G would have taken Stanford/Cal 100 times out of 100 over Maryland/Rutgers if the Bay Area schools were available in the 2010s).
If your basketball arena holds 15k and your football stadium holds 75k. Each football game is equal to 5 basketball games
If your viewership for each game is higher because the games are all on Saturday (maybe a Friday/Thursday). Football wins
Most people don’t care about college basketball until March
The athletic revenue figures for us compared to anyone other than the SEC schools is going to be skewed because all B1G/SEC schools get such high conference distributions.
To be sure, I don’t think that Iowa State is more valuable than Illinois. What I’m saying is that in today’s paradigm, there are about 15-20 top football brands that have real value, and then everyone else in the now-P4 is in the “replacement value” category. Believe me - I wish that weren’t the case. I’m emphasizing that we are VERY lucky that we are charter Big Ten members in today’s world.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I guess I’m just skeptical that it’s even 20. I don’t see the inherent value, say, Iowa or Wisconsin have that we don’t. We are all comparable in revenue and viewers when you compare decent TV/time spots. And I do believe it’s worth pointing out that we are keeping pace with those two as far as the “value” we bring while both Iowa or Wisconsin are WAY closer to their “ceilings” than we are. I’d argue it’s the true behemoths (OSU, Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Michigan, etc.) and a rather large group that we are actually a part of.
I certainly agree we’re lucky to already be home in the Big Ten, though! And I don’t disagree that we are in a “lesser tier” where it’s nice to not be up when the musical chairs starts again! I just think Wisconsin fans are way more confident that they “belong” in the Big Ten while our fans aren’t, but I’d argue we are barely less valuable than they are right now and we have the potential to be more valuable!
Has anyone purchased all session passes before? When you do, can you resell the sessions you’re not going to individually through online sites? In other words, do they come to you as individual session tickets? Thanks
Conspiracy here. I do wonder if the gears are working against Illinois in football a la penalties against Purdue last year pushing Purdue to the BIG championship. Keep Illini down. Where Purdue seems to have favoritism over Illini for some reason (and much better recent success.) concerned if there is contraction in the future.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I'd love to eventually look into how BTT attendance fluctuates with certain teams playing in certain locations, but I looked back through Wikipedia at the attendance for every Big Ten Tournament. First, I list the average by location (excluding the one game in 2020 and the reduced attendance in 2021). Then, there is a list by year for the average attendance.
AVERAGE BTT ATTENDANCE BY LOCATION
Chicago: 19,231
Indianapolis: 16,729
New York (MSG): 15,165 (1 year - 2018)
Washington, DC: 13,240 (1 year - 2017)
AVERAGE BTT ATTENDANCE BY YEAR
2001: 21,984
2005: 21,770
1998: 21,711
2013: 20,757
2000: 20,611
1999: 19,804
2002: 18,996
2007: 18,882
2003: 18,498
2014: 18,171
2006: 18,153
2012: 17,956
2019: 17,463
2011: 17,353
2015: 16,928
2016: 16,722
2023: 16,703
2022: 16,030
2010: 16,016
2008: 15,999
2004: 15,233
2018: 15,165
2009: 13,620
2017: 13,240
There were some sessions for which I could not find any data and obviously the arenas have different capacities, but ... pretty obvious that Chicago has drawn much better over the years than Indianapolis and even more obvious that the two times we have moved away from those central locations have been flops (at least as far as attendance goes.
Just for fun, I also wanted to look at what teams were in the semifinals or beyond for the BTTs with the top ten all-time average attendance numbers. I put the teams in order of my subjective opinion of which programs would most drive up the numbers in that given year:
#1. 2001 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Penn State
#2. 2005 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota
#3. 1998 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Minnesota
#4. 2013 in Chicago, IL: Indiana, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State
#5. 2000 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Penn State
#6. 1999 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State
#7. 2002 in Indianapolis, IN: Indiana, Illinois, Ohio State, Iowa
#8. 2007 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue, Ohio State
#9. 2003 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Indiana, Ohio State
#10. 2014 in Indianapolis, IN: Michigan State, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin
Notice a pattern?
And for a comparison, here are the three lowest attendance years:
#22. 2018 in New York, NY: Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, Purdue
#23. 2009 in Indianapolis, IN: Purdue, Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State
#24. 2017 in Washington, DC: Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern
Worth noting that Maryland lost its first game the DC year. 2009 is truly a head scratcher with all four teams playing through Saturday being programs that generally would theoretically travel well to Indy. I maintain that Chicago is the only location that can draw well no matter who is left in the tournament, though it appears clear that Illinois drives attendance here more than any one other school.
AVERAGE BTT ATTENDANCE BY LOCATION
Chicago: 19,231
Indianapolis: 16,729
New York (MSG): 15,165 (1 year - 2018)
Washington, DC: 13,240 (1 year - 2017)
AVERAGE BTT ATTENDANCE BY YEAR
2001: 21,984
2005: 21,770
1998: 21,711
2013: 20,757
2000: 20,611
1999: 19,804
2002: 18,996
2007: 18,882
2003: 18,498
2014: 18,171
2006: 18,153
2012: 17,956
2019: 17,463
2011: 17,353
2015: 16,928
2016: 16,722
2023: 16,703
2022: 16,030
2010: 16,016
2008: 15,999
2004: 15,233
2018: 15,165
2009: 13,620
2017: 13,240
There were some sessions for which I could not find any data and obviously the arenas have different capacities, but ... pretty obvious that Chicago has drawn much better over the years than Indianapolis and even more obvious that the two times we have moved away from those central locations have been flops (at least as far as attendance goes.
Just for fun, I also wanted to look at what teams were in the semifinals or beyond for the BTTs with the top ten all-time average attendance numbers. I put the teams in order of my subjective opinion of which programs would most drive up the numbers in that given year:
#1. 2001 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Penn State
#2. 2005 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota
#3. 1998 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Minnesota
#4. 2013 in Chicago, IL: Indiana, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State
#5. 2000 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Penn State
#6. 1999 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State
#7. 2002 in Indianapolis, IN: Indiana, Illinois, Ohio State, Iowa
#8. 2007 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue, Ohio State
#9. 2003 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Indiana, Ohio State
#10. 2014 in Indianapolis, IN: Michigan State, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin
Notice a pattern?
And for a comparison, here are the three lowest attendance years:#22. 2018 in New York, NY: Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, Purdue
#23. 2009 in Indianapolis, IN: Purdue, Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State
#24. 2017 in Washington, DC: Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern
Worth noting that Maryland lost its first game the DC year. 2009 is truly a head scratcher with all four teams playing through Saturday being programs that generally would theoretically travel well to Indy. I maintain that Chicago is the only location that can draw well no matter who is left in the tournament, though it appears clear that Illinois drives attendance here more than any one other school.
I'm sure the schools who play deep into the weekend matter but the UC also sits 2-3k more than gainbridge, right?I'd love to eventually look into how BTT attendance fluctuates with certain teams playing in certain locations, but I looked back through Wikipedia at the attendance for every Big Ten Tournament. First, I list the average by location (excluding the one game in 2020 and the reduced attendance in 2021). Then, there is a list by year for the average attendance.
AVERAGE BTT ATTENDANCE BY LOCATION
Chicago: 19,231
Indianapolis: 16,729
New York (MSG): 15,165 (1 year - 2018)
Washington, DC: 13,240 (1 year - 2017)
AVERAGE BTT ATTENDANCE BY YEAR
2001: 21,984
2005: 21,770
1998: 21,711
2013: 20,757
2000: 20,611
1999: 19,804
2002: 18,996
2007: 18,882
2003: 18,498
2014: 18,171
2006: 18,153
2012: 17,956
2019: 17,463
2011: 17,353
2015: 16,928
2016: 16,722
2023: 16,703
2022: 16,030
2010: 16,016
2008: 15,999
2004: 15,233
2018: 15,165
2009: 13,620
2017: 13,240
There were some sessions for which I could not find any data and obviously the arenas have different capacities, but ... pretty obvious that Chicago has drawn much better over the years than Indianapolis and even more obvious that the two times we have moved away from those central locations have been flops (at least as far as attendance goes.
Just for fun, I also wanted to look at what teams were in the semifinals or beyond for the BTTs with the top ten all-time average attendance numbers. I put the teams in order of my subjective opinion of which programs would most drive up the numbers in that given year:
#1. 2001 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Penn State
#2. 2005 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota
#3. 1998 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Minnesota
#4. 2013 in Chicago, IL: Indiana, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State
#5. 2000 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Penn State
#6. 1999 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State
#7. 2002 in Indianapolis, IN: Indiana, Illinois, Ohio State, Iowa
#8. 2007 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue, Ohio State
#9. 2003 in Chicago, IL: Illinois, Michigan State, Indiana, Ohio State
#10. 2014 in Indianapolis, IN: Michigan State, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin
Notice a pattern?
#22. 2018 in New York, NY: Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, Purdue
#23. 2009 in Indianapolis, IN: Purdue, Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State
#24. 2017 in Washington, DC: Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern
Worth noting that Maryland lost its first game the DC year. 2009 is truly a head scratcher with all four teams playing through Saturday being programs that generally would theoretically travel well to Indy. I maintain that Chicago is the only location that can draw well no matter who is left in the tournament, though it appears clear that Illinois drives attendance here more than any one other school.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Correct, these are the capacities. Not sure if any have changed since 1998, though:
United Center (Chicago): 20,917
Capital One Arena (DC): 20,356
Madison Square Garden (NYC): 19,812
Gainbridge Fieldhouse (Indy): 17,274
So, the averages for each as a percent of capacity look like this and actually make Indy look better than Chicago:
Gainbridge Fieldhouse (Indy): 97%
United Center (Chicago): 92%
Madison Square Garden (NYC): 77%
Capital One Arena (DC): 65%
However, Chicago seems to be more consistent and (anecdotally) less reliant on Illinois for good numbers than Indy is on the Hoosiers. That is just my guess, though. But another point ... at the end of the day, a ticket sold is a ticket sold and Chicago is bringing significantly more paying customers into the gym!
MadtownIllin
- Madison, WI
Not sure of the costs to rent each facility, but wouldn't that come into play as well to get a true net income base?
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
For sure. As is the case with all of this incredibly interesting stuff, I always have like half the information at best.
Answering my own post here. Some all-session passes went on sale today through Target Center. I ordered, and looking in my AXS ticket account, I received separate tickets to each session that I can “transfer” individually. So although I haven’t done it yet, it certainly appears I can put a session on Stubhub without having to sell the entire rest of the all session pass.
Note: the only “regular” tickets available are the back half of the upper deck for $400 each. I assume the better seats are going through each school ticket office? Regardless, the Treasure Island Club suite level seats are also available individually for like $680 (but closer to $900 with fees of course). They’re on the “behind the basket” end, but club access, closer than nosebleed, etc. I would guess if you’re an Illini ticket holder, I-fund, etc you can do better through the ticket office… but I’ll just be excited for my way too expensive suite seats. If we make the championship, awesome… if we don’t, I hope Wisconsin does so I can get top resale dollar
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