See my previous post… Weber coached the worst 5 year stretch for illini basketball outside the 70s.
Bruce Weber resigns as Kansas State coach
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I can’t verify your assertion. If that is the case, then the conference must have been loaded. He made the tournament 6/9 years and was ranked during 8/9 seasons. We’ve made the tourney a total of 2 times since Weber left (3 if your count this year)
To be fair, I do agree it got way worse after he left.
True. I think that is partly the problem. BW gets blamed for what happened to the program after he left. No question, BW had flaws. His whiny voice and tendency to throw players under the bus was grating. I just think a guy with near 500 career victories and 5 sweet sixteens is a pretty decent P5 coach.
I had never seen that Pep speech before, it is amazing! It feels like satire.
Everyone: Mourinho is really full of himself
Pep:
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
I get you, and this made me chuckle; however, the energy Illini fans have concerning Bruce Weber a full decade after he left concerns the tragically unfulfilled promise of the program in the wake of the '03-06 seasons. It led to a full decade spent largely in the wilderness and a couple truly awful seasons that consumed BU in finally dragging us out of that.I’m glad we finally got a chance to debate Weber’s coaching career at Illinois. It seemed long overdue.
/s
I'll play. I think Weber is a nice enough guy. Have had a few brief interactions with him. And I respect that he tries to do things "the right way".
But he absolutely tanked our program. After the 05 season, we had more momentum as a program than in anytime in our history. And he took that momentum and turned us into a perennial bubble team. It was inevitable that he'd do the same at KSU. Pointing to 05 as proof that he is a quality high major coach is exactly the same as pointing to Underwood's first two years here and concluding that he's a subpar high major coach. Gotta look at the long term trend.
He will do well to find a struggling mid major to revive back to respectability before retiring.
But he absolutely tanked our program. After the 05 season, we had more momentum as a program than in anytime in our history. And he took that momentum and turned us into a perennial bubble team. It was inevitable that he'd do the same at KSU. Pointing to 05 as proof that he is a quality high major coach is exactly the same as pointing to Underwood's first two years here and concluding that he's a subpar high major coach. Gotta look at the long term trend.
He will do well to find a struggling mid major to revive back to respectability before retiring.
Yeah. He really “tanked” our program with the 2nd most tournament appearances by any coach in Illini history…. Then he had the nerve to go and win the only two B12 championships in the past 40 years at K-State. What a terrible, horrible, program ruining coach. He should be ashamed of his mere 496 career victories. I pray that you aren’t responsible for employee performance reviews. I guess it’s Hall of Fame or bust with you!
Don’t get me wrong, like you, I had hoped for more after the magical 2005 season. I just find the criticism of Bruce Weber way over the top. Go re-read the man’s stat line from page 1 of this thread.
We're not going to agree on this.
But yes, if a person was leading a company and after 9 years in leadership, the company was worse off financially than it was when that person took if over, I would have a hard time not holding them accountable.
What you're saying is the "company" was profitable during his tenure, leave him alone. What I'm saying is the "company" was less profitable under his long tenure so he needs replaced.
yep, you can't find a better human being in college basketball then Bruce Webber.
I guess it depends how you measure success. I suppose your employee reviews are all about gut instinct. If we use objective measurements such as his coaching stat line, then he is one of the most successful coaches in program history. The only Illini coach with more tourney appearances was Lou Henson. He coached the team for 21 seasons and actually had fewer tourney appearances per season of coaching than BW.
Is he Bill Self or Roy Williams or Coach K? No way! We aren’t Kansas or Duke or North Carolina either. He is one of the most successful coaches in the history of OUR program. Why can’t we show the guy a little love and respect.
Using actual, objective information. I challenge you to prove otherwise.
The trend under BW was clearly down, and he was overmatched against his peers in the Big 10. He did a great job through '06 and did well with Frank Martin's team in his first year at KSU, but was mediocre at best beyond that. Illinois is a school that should consistently be in the NCAA tourney, so saying he made it 6 of 9 years isn't that impressive a feat. Between '83 and '12 we missed the tourney 7 times, and 3 of those were in BW's last 5 years. He was a good MVC or MAC level coach, but was below average at the P5 level.
I literally said that I respect him in my post?
But here are a couple actual, objective bits of data.
He has the 7th highest winning percentage all-time of Illinois coaches (out of 12). So, even by our own measly standards, he was below average.
Below is a graphic charting the rolling 3 year average conference finish (blue) and NCAA seed (orange) from Kruger's first year up until Groce's second year (JG's first 2 years are included because BW's final team influenced those 3-year averages). I don't know how you look at this and come to the conclusion that our program was headed in the right direction under Weber's leadership.
Really, he was obviously a better than average P5 coach. Just look at his record, maybe not by much but he was better than average. That being said I don't want a little better than average coaching at Illinois. Things had run their course for him here, but there have been a heck of a lot of worse coaches at the P5 level.
Sure, it's easy. Whatever the program did 20, 30, 50 or 100 years ago is irrelevant. What matters is where the program was when he took over --that's where you start to measure.
In the 4 years prior to Weber, Illinois had at worst, a 4 seed. And he inherited an incredible roster which went S16, then National runner up, followed by a clear line of worse results as the program turned over. Without Deron, they were worse, and without James and Dee, worse still. Without his inherited stars, his results are:
Made tourney, lost in the first round
Missed the tourney and didn't get an NIT invite
Made tourney, lost in the first round
Missed the tourney, made NIT
Made the tourney, won one game
Missed the tourney in spectacular fashion, losing all but 2 of his last 13 games, after being ranked in the early season non-conf.
That's a staggering turn-around for a program that was consistently seeded as S16 or better when he arrived. The fact that he had such a similar arc at KSU makes it all the more amazing that people try to deny the connection.
If you like those results, that's fine. Or if you like Weber as a coach despite the results, that's fine too. What puzzles me is how there are still people that argue there's no difference between what he took over, and where he left it. I'd think a blind man could see it.
I want what we all want. To win as many games as possible and win the Natty every year.
I think many on this board have very unrealistic expectations of what this program is though. The Bill Self years were an anomaly not the Weber years. If our program was really that great, Self never would have left. Yes, our team dropped off after losing one of the most decorated coaches in the history of college sports. The guy that followed him took us further than we’ve ever been. I don’t think that deserves the scorn of the Illini fan base. His resume speaks for itself. He doesn’t belong in the mid-majors and isn’t a below average coach as many have suggested. I don’t know how anyone can look at his record and suggest otherwise.
It's not like the program regressed to its mean after Self left. It dropped to depths we hadn't seen here in decades. And Weber showed no signs of pulling us back out of the hole that he dug.
Look, you can still celebrate and appreciate the guy for the 2005 season while admitting that he caused significant damage to our program. I'm sure in a few years he'll be welcomed back to a standing ovation when that team is honored for their 20th anniversary.
Good data. In the context of the 3 Self years, Weber “Tanked” the program. We also have to recognize that as many benefits that came with Self’s tenure also created some challenges. For example, Bill had built inroads into Chicago during his 3 years at Illinois. After leaving, he came back to his relationships with blue blood credentials and owned our back yard. That made recruiting Chicago difficult for Weber (and Groce). In some ways, Bill Self actually tanked our program.
Even if I agreed with your statement that he was an “average Illini coach”, that is not the same as an average P5 coach. Illinois is an above average P5 program. Weber is certainly not a below average P5 coach and not a coach that belongs in the mid majors.
Not going to go back and look at all the numbers, but I’m pretty sure we’ve had more than 12 coaches. Just going back the past few years. Weber’s record is better than Underwood(hopefully not for long), Groce, and Henson. Worse than Krueger and (future HOFer) Self. Neither of these guys thought highly enough of our program to stick around very long.
Just for the sake of comparison, Weber had a very similar (though shorter) tenure as Lou Henson. Both in terms of winning percentage and tourney appearances. Both also took the team to the final 4.
Alright, can't disagree with anything you said above. Commonground has been found! All the data was just pulled from Wikipedia, so TIFIW.
Illini in Indiana
- Indiana
Illinois has always hired coaches with integrity. Weber was a great guy and good coach, he just did not win enough. I wish him and his family well. Self on the other hand is a self promoter and win at all cost. I still hope they go down.
Ehhh, you really can't compare his record to Henson's (or BU's for that matter). Lou inherited a dumpster fire and it understandably took him a few years to dig out of it. BW inherited a team that had won 3 Big 10 titles in the previous 6 years and had 5 future NBA'ers on it. It is probably fair to compare records after their first 3 seasons and they had to rely on their recruited players
I don't think BW was a terrible coach, but what you saw starting with the 2007 season at Illinois was his long-term ceiling here
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