Illiniaaron
- Geneseo, IL
Isn't the return in the Mets trade a little underwhelming? I know he was a first round pick but no games in 2020 and 17 ABs before season-ending injury this year.
I’d say so.Isn't the return in the Mets trade a little underwhelming? I know he was a first round pick but no games in 2020 and 17 ABs before season-ending injury this year.
I like the return for Kimbrel.Kimbrel heading to the South Side for Nick Madrigal and Codi Heuer.
Baez and Trevor Williams heading to the Mets.
The fault lies with the core guys; they disappeared during crunch time. The Hawks were different in that the core stepped upOne thing that I realized after the Cubs firesale is how impressive the Blackhawks run of 3 cups in 6 years was (really, could have been 4 in 6 and three in a row) with a hard cap in place. The Blackhawks core either held serve or improved from 2010 to 2015 while the cap casualty holes were constantly being filled. That's a great job by the entire organization.
Unfortunately, the Cubs organization did the opposite.
People just do not realize how poor the farm system was. I will continue to blame Theo. He created this mess. It is what he does, builds winners while crashing the minors then watches the major league team crumble. Rizzo will most likely be back next year. Bryant could also. Baez is gone. If the Cubs can find a trade partner for JHey that will open up financial avenues for the offseason. I was under the thought that when the season started, we were a Central contender but injuries basically killed that as we saw in the last month or so. This needed to be done. We will be so far ahead of the Cards and Brewers in rebuilding. I would rather be us than the Cards as they have nothing to deal and a GM that is trying to sink them. We will be back in the top echelon by 23. The talent we have built from these trades and what other talent we have will be in Chicago by 23.You’re right. I completely misunderstood the original tweet I saw. I thought it meant the Cubs didn’t pay any of Rizzo’s remaining salary. When instead it meant the Cubs paid the entirety of Rizzo’s remaining salary.
Which is great. Probably why the Cubs got as good a return as they did.
Per fangraphs, the return on the trades so far rank on the Cubs’ prospect list:
#2 Alcantara (Rizzo)
#11 Vizcaino (Rizzo)
#18 Deichmann (Chafin)
#22 Ball (Pederson)
#26 Palencia (Chafin)
#53 Horn (Tepera)
Gives you some idea of how much they’ve changed the nature of the Cubs’ system with this flurry of trades. Five of the top 26 prospects have come by these trades.
Bryant and Kimbrell yet to come at minimum, with Davies and Baez also possible.
To be fair, the Hawks have three or four HoFers of the core whereas the Cubs do not…but we are in agreement about the Cubs core not stepping up.The fault lies with the core guys; they disappeared during crunch time. The Hawks were different in that the core stepped up
I mean, if they had won 3 WS, I’m sure there would be at least 3 of those guys you’d call HoFers.To be fair, the Hawks have three or four HoFers of the core whereas the Cubs do not…but we are in agreement about the Cubs core not stepping up.
If this were true why did the Red Sox continue to be competitive after Theo? Oh yeah their owner John Henry gives a !!!!.People just do not realize how poor the farm system was. I will continue to blame Theo. He created this mess. It is what he does, builds winners while crashing the minors then watches the major league team crumble. Rizzo will most likely be back next year. Bryant could also. Baez is gone. If the Cubs can find a trade partner for JHey that will open up financial avenues for the offseason. I was under the thought that when the season started, we were a Central contender but injuries basically killed that as we saw in the last month or so. This needed to be done. We will be so far ahead of the Cards and Brewers in rebuilding. I would rather be us than the Cards as they have nothing to deal and a GM that is trying to sink them. We will be back in the top echelon by 23. The talent we have built from these trades and what other talent we have will be in Chicago by 23.
I mean, if they had won 3 WS, I’m sure there would be at least 3 of those guys you’d call HoFers.
It’s really a combination of many things. Hitters didn’t develop as consistently as projected. Pitchers in the system flat out didn’t develop, and the Cubs honestly excelled FASTER than anticipated, which kinda pushed timetables around and may have messed with the 5 year plan. When you expect to be contending in 2017/18, but instead have one of the top records in 2015, go to the NLCS, suddenly you push the chips in early and don’t get as many prospects from selling.
The biggest key everyone has to remember is this: good teams still sell on occasion. Unless you are the 2000s yankees and you buy everyone, every team will sell on occasion. The fact that we are sellers at 4 games under .500 tells me a lot about the expectations of this team. The front office wants more than a playoff spot, they want to win it all again. That means some tough trades will happen. More may happen this winter, but 6 of the players we got this year are now top 20 in our system - which makes this deadline a pretty significant infusion of talent (and that does not include nick madrigal). I trust this front office’s ability to scout and develop players. They have some good young arms in the farm system and with all that money off the books, maybe they will buy some supporting cast or a big name or 2 in the next couple years as the young players develop.
Let’s not sit and say it’s all over. Rebuilds don’t take 100 years - they have kept a few promising you g talents in place for the next run - I’m think 2024 maybe 2025 we should be contending again. It’s unfortunate the 2016 core couldn’t do more, but they had their chances and they got help and still couldn’t crack through.
That said - Contreras is likely traded this winter when they can get more back. Should be a fun next couple years with some lesser known names become fan favorites.
Except we don't know how long this rebuild is going to take. Might take another 100 years. All we know is that this FO and Theo didn't have a plan for after winning the World Series. As you said, they expected to contend in 2018 so they probably figured they'd win the WS now but when the timeframe pushed up 5 years, they didn't have a plan in place.
Good luck with that.People just do not realize how poor the farm system was. I will continue to blame Theo. He created this mess. It is what he does, builds winners while crashing the minors then watches the major league team crumble. Rizzo will most likely be back next year. Bryant could also. Baez is gone. If the Cubs can find a trade partner for JHey that will open up financial avenues for the offseason. I was under the thought that when the season started, we were a Central contender but injuries basically killed that as we saw in the last month or so. This needed to be done. We will be so far ahead of the Cards and Brewers in rebuilding. I would rather be us than the Cards as they have nothing to deal and a GM that is trying to sink them. We will be back in the top echelon by 23. The talent we have built from these trades and what other talent we have will be in Chicago by 23.
I guess what I meant is that when things changed, the FO didn’t change as quickly as they should have.They had a plan. That plan do not involve Rizzo, Bryant, Russell, Lester, Arrieta and Hendricks all peaking in 2015 or 2016.
I think it also involved getting more consistent play out of Baez and Schwarber.
It also involved Almora and Happ living up to their draft picks, Heyward, Darvish, and Kimbrell living up to the free agent contracts they signed, and Quintana living up to the prospect package they gave up for him.
Lol no. No rebuild takes 100 years. What we saw for 100 years was failed attempts to build. At any point, a good strategy would allow any team to go from any point to contending in 5-10 years. The Cubs farm system and player development is not nearly that bad.Except we don't know how long this rebuild is going to take. Might take another 100 years. All we know is that this FO and Theo didn't have a plan for after winning the World Series. As you said, they expected to contend in 2018 so they probably figured they'd win the WS now but when the timeframe pushed up 5 years, they didn't have a plan in place.
Are you conveniently ignoring that in 2012 (or the year after Theo left Boston) they were dead last in the AL East?If this were true why did the Red Sox continue to be competitive after Theo? Oh yeah their owner John Henry gives a !!!!.
Ask me in five years whether the Ricketts family is worthy of that compliment. I am betting they aren’t. They strike me much more as McCaskeys. Willing to milk one title forever without doing that much since.
That’s literally the cost of winning a championship. It takes prospects playing and prospects being traded. We had just enough to do both and win a WS. We did not have enough to go beyond that. The trick is in the timing. If the 2015 Cubs don’t make the NLCS, we likely see a very different 2016 offseason.People just do not realize how poor the farm system was. I will continue to blame Theo. He created this mess. It is what he does, builds winners while crashing the minors then watches the major league team crumble. Rizzo will most likely be back next year. Bryant could also. Baez is gone. If the Cubs can find a trade partner for JHey that will open up financial avenues for the offseason. I was under the thought that when the season started, we were a Central contender but injuries basically killed that as we saw in the last month or so. This needed to be done. We will be so far ahead of the Cards and Brewers in rebuilding. I would rather be us than the Cards as they have nothing to deal and a GM that is trying to sink them. We will be back in the top echelon by 23. The talent we have built from these trades and what other talent we have will be in Chicago by 23.
I also wonder if the Cubs would have made the Chapman trade had it only been a decade since their last WS title instead of 100 years.
That's a really good question. I would tend to think no. Or maybe they make a trade for a "lesser" closer (not sure who that would have been back in 2016) to help them get over the edge and perhaps they'd still have a minor league piece or two that they gave up.
Good thought experiment, though.