Coach/Player Poll

If you had a choice then, which pair do you take?

  • B. Underwood/M. Smith

    Votes: 145 96.0%

  • C. Martin/J. Tilmon

    Votes: 6 4.0%
  • Total voters
    151
#26      

mattcoldagelli

mattcoldagelli
The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
mattcoldagelli
Obelix said:
Cuonzo Martin received tremendous support on this board as a perspective coach for the Illini throughout the entire season, the most out of any other candidate.
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The accuracy of this statement hinges entirely on which definition of "tremendous" you are using.

Do you mean "large in scale"? Then yes, and not surprisingly so - he was mentioned as a candidate in previous years, and his dissatisfaction at Cal was one of the poorly kept secrets in college basketball. He was one of the few people to run the entire duration of the coaching search thread.

Do you mean "extremely positive"? Then no, that's false. Nearly all of the pro-Martin sentiment was qualified with legitimate concerns about style of play and the ability to get on-court results out of gaudy recruits.
 
#27      

whovous

W
Washington, DC
whovous
I just joined the 3% for Cuonzo. I thought he'd keep Tilmon and have a good shot at Mark Smith. More important, I'd never heard of Brad Underwood.

If the question is set today, and not "then", I'd take BU-MS in a flash.
 
#28      

Illiini

Illiini
In the land of the Nittany Lion
Illiini
skyIdub said:
If it weren't for the phenomenal Asst. hires of OA and CC, I think the recruiting edge would have definitely gone to Martin. Much more even now.
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I'm going to go with Illinois having the better recruiting chops. We now have good coverage in the Chicago area, downstate/Metro East, and Florida. And with any kind of success in the coming season, next year's recruiting theoretically should be easier/stronger (he says, having no real idea what he's talking about).
 
#29      

Ga65

G
Ga65
Illiini said:
I'm going to go with Illinois having the better recruiting chops. We now have good coverage in the Chicago area, downstate/Metro East, and Florida. And with any kind of success in the coming season, next year's recruiting theoretically should be easier/stronger (he says, having no real idea what he's talking about).
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The attraction of Conzo was his recruiting and some people thought that was enough to win. He has not proven to be a above average coach. My opinion at the time was keep Groce and the recruiting class rather than go through another mediocre coach. BU's assistants make the whole decision a slam dunk in retrospect. Would have loved to retain Tilmon as he filled a position of great need but have faith that the staff will have an interim solution. Do believe we need to win now to effectively recruit next year. Unfair? Maybe, but they have to earn the big bucks.
 
#30      

skyIdub

skyIdub
Winged Warrior
skyIdub
Illiini said:
I'm going to go with Illinois having the better recruiting chops. We now have good coverage in the Chicago area, downstate/Metro East, and Florida. And with any kind of success in the coming season, next year's recruiting theoretically should be easier/stronger (he says, having no real idea what he's talking about).
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I think you might be right. When I say "much more even now".....(50/50 is my meaning).....it's only because I'm not as familiar with OA and CC. My brother is a big Tennessee fan (lived in Nashville when we were young boys) so I have some familiarity with CM. Long term I think our group is going to be more successful in Illinois as a whole. :illinois:
 
#31      

Deleted member 16340

D
Guest
Deleted member 16340
I thknk that this is comparing apples to asparagus. Isn't the logic when handicapping the chances a recruit will choose us that the field wins most of the time statistically? Well BU wasn't even in the field, so I'm not sure how you choose. I'm convinced that with full disclosure, BU is almost anyone's choice. We are all looking for a strong, long termed success here I believe and CM is the ultimate "slight of hand" choice. He won't last 4 years...
 
#32      

skyIdub

skyIdub
Winged Warrior
skyIdub
CHI 1086 said:
I thknk that this is comparing apples to asparagus. Isn't the logic when handicapping the chances a recruit will choose us that the field wins most of the time statistically? Well BU wasn't even in the field, so I'm not sure how you choose. I'm convinced that with full disclosure, BU is almost anyone's choice. We are all looking for a strong, long termed success here I believe and CM is the ultimate "slight of hand" choice. He won't last 4 years...
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I really meant it as a "pick one pair", Coach A and a big man vs. Coach B (see what I did....) and a guard. Not so much "pick the coach you think would have brought Recruit X". Just either or. So many on here are pining for the big man that I wondered if a guarantee of having Tilmon....back before M. Smith really blew up...would have tipped the scales in favor of C. Martin.

I know it's not a great question timing wise with the guaranteed bias now, but I thought it would be a fun thing to ponder if you could overlook the Miznoz hatred and think back a couple months.

Thanks for all the good discussion! :thumb::illinois:
 
#34      

Deleted member 16340

D
Guest
Deleted member 16340
I can't help but think that CM eventually gets caught with his hands in the wrong cookie jar and causes Misery some serious misery..So glad he's not here.
 
#35      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Obelix said:
Cuonzo received the most support, and as I said at the time, people who wanted Cuonzo secretly dreamed of recruits coming his way.
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I wasn't positive or negative on Cuonzo. He seemed like a great recruiter, and there's a lot to be said for that. I was sick of Groce 2 years ago, so a lot of names sounded ok to me. When you dig a little deeper to see what Cuonzo has done with the talent he's brought in, it just doesn't look very good IMO. Not bad, but I was hoping we could do better. If I were to pick a guy to fail here, I'd choose a guy who brought in great talent and under-performed, rather than the other way around. Having talent gives you hope that the players will run the team better than the coach, and if you have turn-over, you're generally better off if you have some talent to work with.

Underwood was an unknown (for me), but within a few days it was clear to me he was a big upgrade. He has the kind of coaching chops that turns good players into a strong team, and gives talented teams a chance in any game or environment. I think his ceiling is as high as Self's, and despite the criticism of his in-game coaching, Self's done pretty well. Very different coaches, but I think Underwood will be a force here.

Honestly, Underwood has a fire in him I haven't seen in an Illini since Deron. I think that's part of why he was quick to take off from OSU --he recognized the administration was not in the right mind-set, and he could see Whitman is.

Anyone on this board can tell you I don't usually drink the kool-aid. I like this hire though, much more than I would have liked Cuonzo.
 
#36      

MainelyIllini

MainelyIllini
uh, Maine
MainelyIllini
I played against Cuonzo in high school and was really bummed he didn't go to Illinois so that was my original bias against him. I also don't feel he has stayed anywhere long enough and proven to be a winner with his own recruits. In fact he has done marginally with his own great recruits. BU has won everywhere he has been (granted they were not really his recruits).

I was against Cuonzo coming to UI and was ecstatic with BU's hiring. BU + Smith all the way. I think that BU's brand of basketball is much more exciting than Cuonzo's version of Keady ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#37      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
I wasn't buying on Cuonzo because I'm tired of having coaches whose names are frequently misspelled.

After a decade of Webber and another 5 years of Gross, I wasn't looking forward to Kwanzaa, Conso, or any other horrible variant.

I am, however, deviously interested in seeing how people will screw up Brad or Underwood.

:D
 
#38      

Deleted member 4333

D
Guest
Deleted member 4333
Ransom Stoddard said:
I wasn't buying on Cuonzo because I'm tired of having coaches whose names are frequently misspelled.

After a decade of Webber and another 5 years of Gross, I wasn't looking forward to Kwanzaa, Conso, or any other horrible variant.

I am, however, deviously interested in seeing how people will screw up Brad or Underwood.

:D
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Underwould?
 
#39      

BMo79

B
BMo79
to be honest it isn't a fair question, because odds are had Martin came here he would of got smith and JT plus, pickett, and DaWill not sure on Trent. BU was a long term solution, Martin I do not see as a long term fix no matter where he is. Time will tell though. I would guess 4 years from now we will see who was the right hire, Because by then the Porters and JT will be long gone
 
#40      

Deleted member 29907

D
Guest
Deleted member 29907
Ransom Stoddard said:
I wasn't buying on Cuonzo because I'm tired of having coaches whose names are frequently misspelled.

After a decade of Webber and another 5 years of Gross, I wasn't looking forward to Kwanzaa, Conso, or any other horrible variant.

I am, however, deviously interested in seeing how people will screw up Brad or Underwood.

:D
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You must be ecstatic with Mark Smith.
 
#43      

PJD86

P
Texas
PJD86
B, although I bet both guys (Coaches) end up doing well. Time will tell!
 
#44      

7yearillini

7
7yearillini
BMo79 said:
to be honest it isn't a fair question, because odds are had Martin came here he would of got smith and JT plus, pickett, and DaWill not sure on Trent. BU was a long term solution, Martin I do not see as a long term fix no matter where he is. Time will tell though. I would guess 4 years from now we will see who was the right hire, Because by then the Porters and JT will be long gone
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Agree 100%. If the fairer question is asked: BU/Smith or CM/Tilmon/Smith/Porter I don't think it's close.
 
#45      

kuhl84

K
Orlando, FL
kuhl84
Obelix said:
Cuonzo Martin received tremendous support on this board as a perspective coach for the Illini throughout the entire season, the most out of any other candidate. Now, people are branding him as garbage, despite bringing in the #1 player in the country, Tilmon, Harris, etc. a very good class right from the get go. Martin has been a head coach for 9 years, so either people were totally premature in their admiration and evaluation of Martin, or they are totally biased against him because he ended up at Mizzou; or both.
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That's not entirely accurate. The deeper the season went, as his team collapsed and quit on him, he lost support.

I don't think he had "tremendous support" earlier either. As an upgrade from Groce, yes, but there were many who had serious concerns the whole time.

Missouri made a good hire, but I am happy it ended the way it did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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#46      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
kuhl84 said:
That's not entirely accurate. The deeper the season went, as his team collapsed and quit on him, he lost support. I don't think he had "tremendous support" earlier either.
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There was a great number of people/posters who supported the idea of Cuonzo Martin as the coach of the Illini, independent of whether it was their first choice, or even thought that someone else may do even better. That means at a minimum, this great number of people, thought that Cuonzo would do a decent job at Illinois. So if you thought he would do a decent job at Illinois, it is a great inconsistency to believe now that he is garbage and would totally fail at Mizzou. If someone believes that, as I said, either their earlier evaluation of Martin was rushed/premature or they now have a totally biased opinion because he ended at Mizzou; or both.

If someone thought that Cuonzo was terrible, earlier in the coaching thread (there were some posters in that category) and they now believe the same for Cuonzo at Mizzou, their view is totally consistent. No problem or inconsistency with those people.

There are also some people who also though that Cuonzo Martin would do decent at Illinois, although not one of their choices, and he would probably do decent at Mizzou. I see no problem with that view, I am in that category, and from your post it seems that you may be in that category as well. That view is not inconsistent either, but that is different from the first group above, which was the core of my post.
 
#47      

ChiefIllini

C
ChiefIllini
Obelix said:
There are also some people who also though that Cuonzo Martin would do decent at Illinois, although not one of their choices, and he would probably do decent at Mizzou. I see no problem with that view, I am in that category, and from your post it seems that you may be in that category as well. That view is not inconsistent either, but that is different from the first group above, which was the core of my post.
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I went from thinking he was an A1 choice to a solid back to a solely HR hire and basically everywhere in between throughout the search. My final thoughts were that hes gonna be a decent coach anywhere he goes and there's a chance he can catch fire for a year and make a real push. I think he's gonna be in the tourney 4/5 years pretty consistently, especially at a Midwestern school. He's always going to get some top talent. The question is and always has been can he make a team better than it's individual parts.

Personally, and I think a lot on here would agree, I'd rather be in the elite 8 consistently with 4 and 3 star talent, then landing the top player each year and exiting in the first weekend. Pretty much where I see the difference between Underwood and Martin. Both should be successful, but Underwood has proven to be able to elevate a team past its perceived talent, Martin tends to drag them down.

On a side note, Martin's teams are eerily similar to Weber's. Obviously style of play is extremely similar and I didn't want to see that again, but it's also worth noting how Martin's teams tend to do that February/March disappearing act that Weber's did. If Groce had one thing going for him, it was that his teams didn't quit for extended periods of time, though a game or two at the end was quite common.
 
#48      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
ChiefIllini said:
Personally, and I think a lot on here would agree, I'd rather be in the elite 8 consistently with 4 and 3 star talent, then landing the top player each year and exiting in the first weekend.
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If you can be in E8 consistently, then the talent level does not matter. Yet, being in the E8 consistently is not independent of talent, and making the E8 consistently with 3 and 4 star talent is not something that will likely happen. There were many posters who were making similar claims when recruiting went south during the early Weber years, while things were good with Self talent, and people claimed that Weber will have the Illini consistently in the E8 with lesser recruits.

Obviously, BU does not believe that either, and you can see from his hiring decisions on the coaching staff. His coaching staff decisions so far scream one thing loud and clear: Recruiting.
 
#49      

FC Illiniman

F
FC Illiniman
BU/Smith . CM can recruit, but can't coach. Don't think he could carry BU's lunchbox. Smith is a total player, Tilmon is big, around basket good. Need the total game to win. Whitman is proving everyday his AD talents, hope coaching shows us all he makes good choices.:illinois:
 
#50      

ChiefIllini

C
ChiefIllini
Obelix said:
If you can be in E8 consistently, then the talent level does not matter. Yet, being in the E8 consistently is not independent of talent, and making the E8 consistently with 3 and 4 star talent is not something that will likely happen.
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It was an exaggeration of expectations on my part. Essentially, I was trying to convey the message that Martin has had enough talent to make it consistently past the first weekend multiple years. Underwood, while a smaller sample size, has had inferior talent and yet, has won two tourney games and has come extremely close to another 2 wins, one of which would've put SFA in the S16. He's really only had one "bad" loss in the tourney and that wasn't even an opening round game.

My thought is, regardless of what talent comes here, Underwood has a better shot of consistently getting us into and further in the tournament.

Oh, and to add to your point about him adding known recruiters as assistants, I think BU seems very self aware and willing to adapt. That's not something many coaches will do, even the great ones. Sometimes it can be too much too soon, but I think our last two HC's have shown that sticking to your guns can cause a slow painful death. I'm not sure Cuonzo has that kind of mentality.