Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#201      

Indy Illini Fan

Indy Illini Fan
Indy Illini Fan
Future Insider said:
Indy will you be out in Arizona for the Final 4 ?
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Sources say ...

phoenix arizona GIF
 
#202      

PepeSilvia

P
PepeSilvia
Boskydell said:
I'm no savant, but the main problem seemed to be Coleman's inability to guard the better fives, and staff's decision not to double in order to not leave open shooters. Wolf or Reynaud would go a long way toward fixing that if Coleman was to return.
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Coleman definitely struggled against bigger centers but I think the defense was more often hurt by lack of rim protection and allowing too much dribble penetration.

They did a great job of running opposing teams off the 3pt line but it ended up leading to a ton of layups because of the lack of a rim protector.
 
#204      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
turnaround3 said:
I remember.

The way my brain functions that just means if Tang (essentially, 2 years rather than 1) does to them what Brad did to OK State, KSU swings even harder this time. If you're them, why wouldn't you? No particular reason to believe there's any higher that they could realistically aim, and one could make the argument coming off an E8 run Brad could look at it with a "built it up and left it in a far better place than I found it" type angle.

Do I expect he'd do any of that? I don't. I just don't want to have to deal with even the possibility, personally. As long as Tang's there the possibility is at or adjacent to zero.
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A couple points to consider:

1. This is not some "orange-tinted glasses take" here ... Illinois is just flat-out an objectively better job if you are not looking at this from an extreme KSU bias.
- Conference Position: HUGE advantage Illinois. KSU is not getting a Big Ten or SEC invite any time soon, and the financial advantage we have over them will only grow, not to mention just the stability of our situation.
- NIL: Clear advantage Illinois. While we cannot know these figures for sure, all insider reports here have indicated we are top 10 in the nation and first or second in the Big Ten. Add on the extra money from the Big Ten each year, and I doubt it is that close. We have a larger alumni base and more money in Champaign/Illinois than there is in Manhattan/Kansas, in general. Not passing judgment, just talking demographically.
- Facilities: Cannot say for sure, but I have to imagine advantage Illinois. We have one of the best practice facilities in the nation, and SFC is a gem of history mixed with a still-relatively fresh udpate.
- Recruiting Footprint: HUGE advantage Illinois. While it's obvious that Illinois state talent blows Kansas state talent out of the water, it's also worth noting that KSU's nearest major metro (Kansas City) really doesn't produce all THAT much talent, either. It doesn't even come close to markets where we have a somewhat "home town" sway like Chicago and St. Louis, not to mention our proximity to Indianapolis. I know high school instate recruits matter less these days, but it cannot be anything but a positive to be the "home state team" for some of the nation's top talent ... it gets you a foot in the door.
- Tradition: I guess you could be generous and say a wash ... but I certainly lean Illinois.
- Fan Support: Again, let's be generous and say a wash ... but we have better attendance than them and travel better from what I have seen (the takeover in Vegas last year will still be one of my favorite memories from that season, it was wild). Pure logic also says that we have a much larger fan following, given a significantly larger alumni base, "local population" (Central IL vs. Central KS) and state population (IL obviously much bigger than KS, a state where KSU plays a clear second fiddle to KU).
- Recent Success: Let's not make this longer than we have to, clear advantage Illinois.

2. So that leaves "sentimental attachment," and I think people are really overrating that one. First off, as @illini0440 said, Brad already politely declined when we weren't in anywhere near as advantageous of a situation as we are now. Also, I think a lot of people overrate how much an "alma mater" means to people. Don't get me wrong, to some people it's practically everything ... but to some, it's just where you went to college. I didn't go to Illinois for pure, logical reasons; and I will NEVER cheer for my alma mater to beat the Illini, haha. Brad might love KSU and love Manhattan, KS, but he is in a PROFESSION. And if he does not determine that KSU is a "step up" professionally, I highly doubt he would do that just because of fond memories from back in the day. And I think I demonstrated clearly why Illinois is a better destination job.

3. On a similar note, last offseason was a LOT different than this one. We were coming off one of our more dysfunctional seasons in recent memory, and it was still unclear if we were going to bring TSJ or Coleman back and/or who else we would lose to the portal. The taste in EVERYBODY'S mouth after the First Round loss to Arkansas was awful, and it might have been reasonable to ponder Brad feeling like our fan base was a bit too ungrateful for him to put in all of this work all over again. Fast forward to now, and we are coming off of the third most wins in program history, have a potentially solid core of players returning and some great, truly elite recruits on the way. The fan base is happy, and Underwood is a portal signee or two from being RIGHT back at the top of the Big Ten. In a year's time, we went from a potential narrative of "Now that Kofi's gone, Illinois sucks again" to "Illinois is perennially near the top of the Big Ten now." He is in a great situation, and I truly don't understand our fan base worrying about losing coaches like this. We should have the same confidence as Michigan, Arizona, MSU, etc. that if we pay, they will stay. The last five years have earned us ALL the right to be a bit cockier again...
 
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#205      

illini0440

illini0440
illini0440
RabidDawgClassic said:
Come on, man! I love Coleman to death and he gave his heart and soul on the defensive end, but you can’t seriously make the case that we weren’t vulnerable in the paint this past season. Whether it was bigs like Edey, Clingan, Reese, Kauffman-Renn and Malik Hall just to name a few, at-the-rim defense was our Achilles heel. If the bigs didn’t get us, the wings would switch until they got a favorable matchup. Dan Hurley himself said that in scouting Illinois and especially our losses, the obvious weakness was interior defense.
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Edey 2 Games-13-23 for 28 not efficient, 5-5 for 10 points
Crowl- 5-12 for 11
Wahl-9-14 for 20, pretty efficient
Hall 7-9 for 22 efficient
Reese 6-8 for 18 efficient and 8-16 for 20 not really efficient
Garcia 12-23 for 29 not very efficient along with some contested 3's
Nicholson 6-7 for 12 efficient but not gonna kill you.

My whole point is if teams want to throw it into the post 20 times a game just to score 24-28 points.....coaches will take that.
 
#206      

illiniwil

I
illiniwil
illini0440 said:
Edey 2 Games-13-23 for 28 not efficient, 5-5 for 10 points
Crowl- 5-12 for 11
Wahl-9-14 for 20, pretty efficient
Hall 7-9 for 22 efficient
Reese 6-8 for 18 efficient and 8-16 for 20 not really efficient
Garcia 12-23 for 29 not very efficient along with some contested 3's
Nicholson 6-7 for 12 efficient but not gonna kill you.

My whole point is if teams want to throw it into the post 20 times a game just to score 24-28 points.....coaches will take that.
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you also have to consider Coleman on the offensive end moving the ball , hitting an occasional 3 and
most importantly pulling the other big man away from the basket allowing our guys room to drive to
the basket. twice all year the other teams big men hurt us and cost us games, twice.
 
#207      

Boskydell

B
Boskydell
illini0440 said:
Edey 2 Games-13-23 for 28 not efficient, 5-5 for 10 points
Crowl- 5-12 for 11
Wahl-9-14 for 20, pretty efficient
Hall 7-9 for 22 efficient
Reese 6-8 for 18 efficient and 8-16 for 20 not really efficient
Garcia 12-23 for 29 not very efficient along with some contested 3's
Nicholson 6-7 for 12 efficient but not gonna kill you.

My whole point is if teams want to throw it into the post 20 times a game just to score 24-28 points.....coaches will take that.
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Didn't say not doubling was the wrong decision, but that they had little choice due to personal. Hence, not totally on Hamer.
 
#208      

grue2

G
grue2
illini0440 said:
Edey 2 Games-13-23 for 28 not efficient, 5-5 for 10 points
Crowl- 5-12 for 11
Wahl-9-14 for 20, pretty efficient
Hall 7-9 for 22 efficient
Reese 6-8 for 18 efficient and 8-16 for 20 not really efficient
Garcia 12-23 for 29 not very efficient along with some contested 3's
Nicholson 6-7 for 12 efficient but not gonna kill you.

My whole point is if teams want to throw it into the post 20 times a game just to score 24-28 points.....coaches will take that.
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What is your bar for efficient?
13-23 for 28 is 1.22 pts/possession
12-23 for 29 is 1.26 pts/possession
 
#209      

I-L-L 1318

I
I-L-L 1318
Have to keep in mind that some of our defensive pitfalls came from guards straight line driving forcing Coleman to help off. Later in the season on-ball defense was better which allowed Coleman to stick to his guy
 
#210      

GrayGhost77

GrayGhost77
Centennial, CO
GrayGhost77
Fighter of the Nightman said:
A couple points to consider:

1. This is not some "orange-tinted glasses take" here ... Illinois is just flat-out an objectively better job if you are not looking at this from an extreme KSU bias.
- Conference Position: HUGE advantage Illinois. KSU is not getting a Big Ten or SEC invite any time soon, and the financial advantage we have over them will only grow, not to mention just the stability of our situation.
- NIL: Clear advantage Illinois. While we cannot know these figures for sure, all insider reports here have indicated we are top 10 in the nation and first or second in the Big Ten. Add on the extra money from the Big Ten each year, and I doubt it is that close. We have a larger alumni base and more money in Champaign/Illinois than there is in Manhattan/Kansas, in general. Not passing judgment, just talking demographically.
- Facilities: Cannot say for sure, but I have to imagine advantage Illinois. We have one of the best practice facilities in the nation, and SFC is a gem of history mixed with a still-relatively fresh udpate.
- Recruiting Footprint: HUGE advantage Illinois. While it's obvious that Illinois state talent blows Kansas state talent out of the water, it's also worth noting that KSU's nearest major metro (Kansas City) really doesn't produce all THAT much talent, either. It doesn't even come close to markets where we have a somewhat "home town" sway like Chicago and St. Louis, not to mention our proximity to Indianapolis. I know high school instate recruits matter less these days, but it cannot be anything but a positive to be the "home state team" for some of the nation's top talent ... it gets you a foot in the door.
- Tradition: I guess you could be generous and say a wash ... but I certainly lean Illinois.
- Fan Support: Again, let's be generous and say a wash ... but we have better attendance than them and travel better from what I have seen (the takeover in Vegas last year will still be one of my favorite memories from that season, it was wild). Pure logic also says that we have a much larger fan following, given a significantly larger alumni base, "local population" (Central IL vs. Central KS) and state population (IL obviously much bigger than KS, a state where KSU plays a clear second fiddle to KU).
- Recent Success: Let's not make this longer than we have to, clear advantage Illinois.

2. So that leaves "sentimental attachment," and I think people are really overrating that one. First off, as @illini0440 said, Brad already politely declined when we weren't in anywhere near as advantageous of a situation as we are now. Also, I think a lot of people overrate how much an "alma mater" means to people. Don't get me wrong, to some people it's practically everything ... but to some, it's just where you went to college. I didn't go to Illinois for pure, logical reasons; and I will NEVER cheer for my alma mater to beat the Illini, haha. Brad might love KSU and love Manhattan, KS, but he is in a PROFESSION. And if he does not determine that KSU is a "step up" professionally, I highly doubt he would do that just because of fond memories from back in the day. And I think I demonstrated clearly why Illinois is a better destination job.

3. On a similar note, last offseason was a LOT different than this one. We were coming off one of our more dysfunctional seasons in recent memory, and it was still unclear if we were going to bring TSJ or Coleman back and/or who else we would lose to the portal. The taste in EVERYBODY'S mouth after the First Round loss to Arkansas was awful, and it might have been reasonable to ponder Brad feeling like our fan base was a bit too ungrateful for him to put in all of this work all over again. Fast forward to now, and we are coming off of the third most wins in program history, have a potentially solid core of players returning and some great, truly elite recruits on the way. The fan base is happy, and Underwood is a portal signee or two from being RIGHT back at the top of the Big Ten. In a year's time, we went from a potential narrative of "Now that Kofi's gone, Illinois sucks again" to "Illinois is perennially near the top of the Big Ten now." He is in a great situation, and I truly don't understand our fan base worrying about losing coaches like this. We should have the same confidence as Michigan, Arizona, MSU, etc. that if we pay, they will stay. The last five years have earned us ALL the right to be a bit cockier again...
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You forgot to mention we have the best AD in all the land. I don't know anything about KSU's AD, but I can't imagine they are better than Josh. Who you're working for should be a huge factor with any job.
 
#212      

Mobi

M
Mobi
grue2 said:
What is your bar for efficient?
13-23 for 28 is 1.22 pts/possession
12-23 for 29 is 1.26 pts/possession
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I think it's only fair to compare to that player's seasonal average. For Edey, 1.22 pts/pos and 28 pt is pretty close to his average so I wouldn't say he destroyed us. He was getting what he was supposed to get.

For Garcia, taking away the 3 pts, it's 10-19 and I think that's higher than his seasonal average so yes he hurt us more. But that game was just crazy.

Essentially, Coleman is an average post defender (at best) but we overcome it by scoring enough (I don't think Dain was a better option anyway). The only game we were really hurt was the UConn game by Clingan. However I don't blame Coleman. I blame Brad by not playing five out more.
 
#213      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
GrayGhost77 said:
You forgot to mention we have the best AD in all the land. I don't know anything about KSU's AD, but I can't imagine they are better than Josh. Who you're working for should be a huge factor with any job.
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A great point. It doesn't matter HOW good of a job Illinois basketball is "inherently" ... Mike Thomas is not swiping a coach away from a program with the prestige of Oklahoma State, lol. We are very lucky to have Whitman.
 
#216      

Indy Illini Fan

Indy Illini Fan
Indy Illini Fan
illinihawk16 said:
For the sanity of this board, I hope it's Will Wade. I'm not saying Underwood would bolt to KState, I don't think he would, but the speculation would be rampant.
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If I was making the hire ... Will Wade would have already been under contract ... But he is a hate him or love him kind of guy ...

Arkansas has old money and they like Tang ... The younger money and AD want Wade ...

Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out ...
 
#217      

illinihawk16

illinihawk16
Chicago
illinihawk16
Indy Illini Fan said:
If I was making the hire ... Will Wade would have already been under contract ... But he is a hate him or love him kind of guy ...

Arkansas has old money and they like Tang ... The younger money and AD want Wade ...

Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out ...
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Agreed, I think Wade has a much better chance of success at Arkansas than Tang. We'll see what happens
 
#219      

illiniballknower

I
illiniballknower
illini0440 said:
Edey 2 Games-13-23 for 28 not efficient, 5-5 for 10 points
Crowl- 5-12 for 11
Wahl-9-14 for 20, pretty efficient
Hall 7-9 for 22 efficient
Reese 6-8 for 18 efficient and 8-16 for 20 not really efficient
Garcia 12-23 for 29 not very efficient along with some contested 3's
Nicholson 6-7 for 12 efficient but not gonna kill you.

My whole point is if teams want to throw it into the post 20 times a game just to score 24-28 points.....coaches will take that.
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Most coaches would not want to allow 1.2 to 1.4 points per possession for an action
 
#223      

OrangeBlue98

OrangeBlue98
Des Moines, IA
OrangeBlue98
Obviously a massive game of "what if", and Josh Whitman wasn't going to be Illinois' AD in 2011. But a big what if game I sometimes play in my head is what would have Shaka Smart have done if Josh Whitman would have been the AD at Illinois instead of Mike Thomas. While not having any direct knowledge, a source who I greatly trust pretty much told me flat-out when all of that was going down that Smart could not stand Mike Thomas from days gone by at Akron.

I still don't ever think Brad Stevens would have taken the Illinois job, because he was likely looking at different jobs considering he took the Celtics job less than two years later. All water under the bridge now, but Mike Thomas absolutely set the entire athletic program back since he could never get the quality of coaches to work for him that Josh Whitman is able to recruit.
 
#224      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
Indy Illini Fan said:
If I was making the hire ... Will Wade would have already been under contract ... But he is a hate him or love him kind of guy ...

Arkansas has old money and they like Tang ... The younger money and AD want Wade ...

Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out ...
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Indy,

I was reading an Arkansas board, and their fans were complaining that their NIL allegedly wasn't good and Muss was frustrated?? I thought they were one of the better schools for NIL, so this kind of shocked me. Maybe just a false rumor?
 
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