Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#201      
genxrex
PepeSilvia said:
Its a short season and fairly small sample size so a guy or two having a down year is unremarkable but it seemed like the entire team shot worse from 3 than their abilities would suggest that shot selection and scheme was a huge part of that.

Boswell was a 39% shooter at Arizona and aiot 24% here.
Davis was a 40% shooter that dropped to 34%
Hum was a 41% shooter that dropped to 34%
Kasparis and Riley both looks they should be very good shooters and shot 32%
Even DGL who looks like he should be able to shoot and was an 80% free throw shooter only shot 25%.
Ivisic was solid but I think even he could shoot better that 36%.
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This is what I've been wondering going back to when Brad arrived.

What carryover guys in 2017 and incoming transfers/portal guys have maintained or improved their 3 point % with us over their previous year?

It feels like a multi-year issue. Need to activate resident stat guru to run some t-tests or something.

Obviously tough to compare high School to college and freshman to sophomore jump but Mark Smith was doo doo here 23% but his successive years were 45%, 37%, 31%, 36% on volume
 
#202      
blackdog
This is going to sound inflammatory but people complaining about the offense clearly don't actually watch what is happening during plays and only focus on the ball. If you need someone to make a video breaking down a play for you to understand it that probably means you don't really understand what you are looking at.

Illinois got a TON of good shots during games, both at the rim and for 3s. They just missed the 3s. That and turning the ball over on routine plays are the only things that held the offense back. I would be curious to see some stats/charts but yhe shot profile of the team changed a lot as the year went on. Early on the 3s they were taking were sometimes just a simple swing pass with the defender right there and as the year went on we saw a lot more kick outs for open looks. Really overall the offense got more complex as the season progressed which makes sense considering you can't do much with a brand new team right away while they still learn the basics. One of the other major ways that not having returners hurts.
 
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#203      
IlliniFanTX
blackdog said:
This is going to sound inflammatory but people complaining about the offense clearly don't actually watch what is happening during plays and only focus on the ball. If you need someone to make a video breaking down a play for you to understand it that probably means you don't really understand what you are looking at.

Illinois got a TON of good shots during games, both at the rim and for 3s. They just missed the 3s. That and turning the ball over on routine plays are the only things that held the offense back. I would curious to see some stats/charts but yhe shot profile of the team changed a lot as the year went on. Early on the 3s they were taking were sometimes just a simple swing pass with the defender right there and as the year went on we saw a lot more kick outs for open looks. Really overall the offense got more complex as the season progressed which makes sense considering you can't do much with a brand new team right away while they still learn the basics. One of the other major ways that not having returners hurts.
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ALL OF THIS... but especially the bold.
 
#205      
GatorMcKlusky
PepeSilvia said:
I think the fact that a team with with a bunch of decent shooters shot so incredibly poorly from 3 is a testament that scored because of talent and they were great on the offensive boards as all of Brad's teams have been not because of offensive scheme.

Its a short season and fairly small sample size so a guy or two having a down year is unremarkable but it seemed like the entire team shot worse from 3 than their abilities would suggest that shot selection and scheme was a huge part of that.

Boswell was a 39% shooter at Arizona and aiot 24% here.
Davis was a 40% shooter that dropped to 34%
Hum was a 41% shooter that dropped to 34%
Kasparis and Riley both looks they should be very good shooters and shot 32%
Even DGL who looks like he should be able to shoot and was an 80% free throw shooter only shot 25%.
Ivisic was solid but I think even he could shoot better that 36%.
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Tighter rims at State Farm Center? What was the breakdown of this years' 3 point shooting % home vs road?
 
#206      
PepeSilvia
OrangeBlue98 said:
Maybe it's my biases showing, but I felt like we had really good looks in a lot of games as opposed to our shooting being low because of contested shots.

For me, those shooting percentages scream out more for a skills development-type coach. While I do think the offense can always improve (and I've posted plenty on that, so I won't rehash all of that here), I felt like the issues this year were more about players not hitting open shots.
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Obviously there was a fair share of of wide open misses but there was also a lot of bad shots imo. There was also just way too many pull up and off the dribble 3's in situations where they failed to really put any pressure on the defense or there was nobody in a position to grab an offensive rebound.

Kasparis fell in love with the step back 3 which he can make but probably shouldn't have been attempting them as often as he did which is a coaching issue.

Boswell actually started playing very well the last few games imo after I was very critical early and mid season but he had a fair share of bad attempts from deep.

Even Ivisic who shot well for the most part often seemed to take some attempts where he was rushed or somewhat awkward/off balance.

White was the one guy especially later on who seemed to understand his shooting abilities and started taking in rhythm corner shots where he was successful.

I actually think KJ, Boswell, Hum, Ivisic, Riley, and Davis are legitimately plus shooters that could all flirt with 40% for a season. I don't think its a skill issue as much as a shot selection one. I also think DGL will be around an averagish shooter next year and shoot 33-34% percent.
 
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#207      
HensonHall71
IllinoisssssssVarsity said:
What changes to the defensive philosophy would the board like that a new DC could potentially bring?
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The biggest area in mind mind is having a gameplan specific to opposing teams to take away what they do well/rely on offensively. You saw this against us this year, take the Kentucky game- they don’t normally create a lot of turnovers or pressure/gamble defensively, but against us they saw an opportunity to hedge hard on the screens even double when it was one of the freshman with the ball to create turnovers

On the other hand we did nothing to take away their shooters we went over screens but with extreme drop coverage to take away Williams being able to dive to the rim but there was no defender on the screener so they would get wide open looks. For the majority of the year we had pretty terrible gameplan and then failed to adjust in game to what was beating us

That’s what we need most in a DC- have a philosophy it then adjust it to your opponent. When talent is equal like it was versus Kentucky coaching matters - All year we normally beat teams when the talent difference was high but lost to every team that had equal or better talent to us, that is not a good endorsement of our coaching
 
#208      
AnnoyedWithGarza
PasadenaIllini said:
I'm seeing 29th in the NCAA in offensive efficiency this past season.
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/offensive-efficiency
but all that aside, I know what my own lying eyes saw having watched every game this season. Lots of standing around the perimeter and chucking 3s with no motion, poor screen setting, and not too much purpose.
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The advanced metrics say you are wrong.

Pope (HC Kentucky) said, during the in-game interview, he was really pleased with how his defense was playing because they were having to guard some really complex sets.

I'll take his word and the metrics over what your eyes saw. Did you go back and watch film on the games after your one time watching live?

Most of the time, our eyes lie to us or at least our memory of events we are seeing live is poor at best. That is why eye witness testimony is unreliable. Also why the saying it is never as good as it seemed or as bad as it seemed exists.
 
#209      
robertgoulet
blackdog said:
This is going to sound inflammatory but people complaining about the offense clearly don't actually watch what is happening during plays and only focus on the ball. If you need someone to make a video breaking down a play for you to understand it that probably means you don't really understand what you are looking at.

Illinois got a TON of good shots during games, both at the rim and for 3s. They just missed the 3s. That and turning the ball over on routine plays are the only things that held the offense back. I would be curious to see some stats/charts but yhe shot profile of the team changed a lot as the year went on. Early on the 3s they were taking were sometimes just a simple swing pass with the defender right there and as the year went on we saw a lot more kick outs for open looks. Really overall the offense got more complex as the season progressed which makes sense considering you can't do much with a brand new team right away while they still learn the basics. One of the other major ways that not having returners hurts.
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There is a large group of people who don't like shooting 3s and would rather see post ups/taking open mid range jumpers. I would bet that a pretty large group of that group also doesn't think there is offense being run if they don't see constant cutting, passing and off ball screens.
 
#210      
NarrowJ
robertgoulet said:
There is a large group of people who don't like shooting 3s and would rather see post ups/taking open mid range jumpers. I would bet that a pretty large group of that group also doesn't think there is offense being run if they don't see constant cutting, passing and off ball screens.
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That's the group that as 0440 and others have pointed out, do not understand how contemporary offenses work.
 
#211      
CoachHooleyHoo
PasadenaIllini said:
Until Hamer and Tyler are confirmed as replaced, I feel completely differently about this. So we get some of our best guys back, but we still have the same braindead offensive and defensive schemes and planning? Better coaching is desperately needed by our team. Unless that's what we get, my concern is that we'll get similar results to this season.
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We averaged almost 84 points per game, tops in the B1G. I certainly think there were times where our offense was not as efficient as it needed to be and the 3pt shooting was mind-boggling bad, but we averaged 84 points per game. What in the world do we expect?
 
#212      
CoachHooleyHoo
blackdog said:
This is going to sound inflammatory but people complaining about the offense clearly don't actually watch what is happening during plays and only focus on the ball. If you need someone to make a video breaking down a play for you to understand it that probably means you don't really understand what you are looking at.

Illinois got a TON of good shots during games, both at the rim and for 3s. They just missed the 3s. That and turning the ball over on routine plays are the only things that held the offense back. I would be curious to see some stats/charts but yhe shot profile of the team changed a lot as the year went on. Early on the 3s they were taking were sometimes just a simple swing pass with the defender right there and as the year went on we saw a lot more kick outs for open looks. Really overall the offense got more complex as the season progressed which makes sense considering you can't do much with a brand new team right away while they still learn the basics. One of the other major ways that not having returners hurts.
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This is an excellent post!!!!!
 
#213      
Illini in Indiana
IlliniFanTX said:
ALL OF THIS... but especially the bold.
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Yes, and the fact that we are trying to build a different team every year. Rebounding focus was the only thing that kept us from having a real bad year.

IMO, the complexity of the offense, rebounding requirement, and lack of time playing together all lead to a bit of "lack of focus" which is needed to shoot at a high percentage.

I think if this could stay together for 3 years, we'd be a final 4 team, but that doesn't happen in today's NIL era.

So I had to adjust my expectations and appreciate that we are a top 20 team yearly, and there are 100 other teams striving to be us.
 
#214      
Stevegarbs
NarrowJ said:
That's the group that as 0440 and others have pointed out, do not understand how contemporary offenses work.
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This might be a fair complaint and there do seem to be more active/exciting offenses, but there were plenty of times where our offense was four guys standing outside the arc doing NOTHING except watch the guy with the ball at the top of the key dribble in front of his defender seemingly waiting for him to fall down so he can drive. Or make a horrible pass that is turned over. Maddeningly boring to watch. If that's an NBA offense I would rather it stays in the NBA and we run a college offense. Metrics schmetrics.
 
#215      
HensonHall71
robertgoulet said:
There is a large group of people who don't like shooting 3s and would rather see post ups/taking open mid range jumpers. I would bet that a pretty large group of that group also doesn't think there is offense being run if they don't see constant cutting, passing and off ball screens.
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I don’t know about that - we had a very good offense this year, but it’s also true we fell into long stretches of a settling for threes when defenses would pack it in against us and given our 3pt % shooting that hurt us. I think it’s a fair criticism that in those situations our coaches could have called more sets to get us a shot at the rim or at least action toward the rim that would lead to an easier shot or a kick out three.

The MSU game at SFC is a good example of this -we were destroying them at the rim in the first half and then the last 10 min of the game we simply jacked up threes without getting any actions toward the rim and when posting up WR no longer worked we had no answer. I think you can be critical of the coaching but also recognize it wasn’t the scheme, just lack of in game adjustments to get out of ruts - too many long stretches of lack of offense in key games
 
#216      
genxrex
PepeSilvia said:
Even Ivisic who shot well for the most part often seemed to take some attempts where he was rushed or somewhat awkward/off balance.

White was the one guy especially later on who seemed to understand his shooting abilities and started taking in rhythm corner shots where he was successful.
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Someone said in another thread about the importance having that beat or that split second to gather yourself before the shot. If you don't have that beat it might not be the best shot regardless of where it comes from on the court, for the analytics guys. When Ivisic has that beat he seems like 65%. Same with Tre as you pointed out.
 
#217      
NarrowJ
Stevegarbs said:
This might be a fair complaint and there do seem to be more active/exciting offenses, but there were plenty of times where our offense was four guys standing outside the arc doing NOTHING except watch the guy with the ball at the top of the key dribble in front of his defender seemingly waiting for him to fall down so he can drive. Or make a horrible pass that is turned over. Maddeningly boring to watch. If that's an NBA offense I would rather it stays in the NBA and we run a college offense. Metrics schmetrics.
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Oh I agree there is way too much 1:1 at times (and also recognize that is on the coaches to reign that in)

But mostly, it's "why are 3 guys just standing there?" and the answer is they're waiting for the 2 guys in the PnR action to reach a point where they can do something without getting in the way
 
#219      
PasadenaIllini
On Pope, that sounds like something Izzo would say about Bruce Weber or John Groce, because he wanted to coach against them again.

And Identifying a criminal isn't remotely the same as watching basketball.
 
#220      
OrangeBlue98
robertgoulet said:
There is a large group of people who don't like shooting 3s and would rather see post ups/taking open mid range jumpers. I would bet that a pretty large group of that group also doesn't think there is offense being run if they don't see constant cutting, passing and off ball screens.
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With respect, I think this is a very reductive and simplistic way of looking at things.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm all in favor of the modern offense with the majority of shots taken as near the rim 2s and 3s. The worst shot in basketball from an expected points perspective is a 20-foot jumper. It's why I've made fun of Indiana constantly under the Mike Woodson era.

What I have said, and will continue to say, is you can still have a modern, analytics-based, "rim 2s and 3s" offense with more movement and more involvement from all five players on the floor instead of just 2 to 4 players. UConn does it. Auburn does it. We don't have to return to pounding the ball into the post every possession. There is a middle ground - and probably a middle ground that is a lot closer to what Illinois currently runs - that will produce similar shots and likely more open, in-rhythm shots.
 
#223      
USAFILLINI
NarrowJ said:
That's the group that as 0440 and others have pointed out, do not understand how contemporary offenses work.
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At some point, when you realize you don't have the shooters you thought you did, adjustments are necessary. If you didn’t see how our reliance on the three-point shot cost us games, I don’t know what to tell you. Robbie Hummel mentioned several times how puzzled he was by our approach, does he not know basketball? It’s frustrating when people try to dismiss criticism with the “you don’t know basketball” line.

I believe Tyler has the potential to be a great coach in college basketball. But there’s no one, not even the insiders who hold him in high regard, who can justify the position he’s in right now. And with the talent he's been given, how do we not know if our offense could have been even better with an established offensive coordinator?
 
#225      
nyc_illini
USAFILLINI said:
…But there’s no one, not even the insiders who hold him in high regard, who can justify the position he’s in right now. And with the talent he's been given, how do we not know if our offense could have been even better with an established offensive coordinator?
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How do you know “there is no one…who hold him in high regard”?

Are you basing that on just this echo chamber?
 
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