Coaching Carousel (Basketball)
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Doesn't it seem as though last year's team was tailor made to play zone? Lots of length, average at best quickness and some guys who couldn't guard my grandmother.
I don't think the offense scheme is bad but it definitely has consistency issues and could not score enough versus good team. Tyler is good for his age but can't we find somebody better? That's my main question.
All good points.
I just don't want anyone to overstate how good Weber's defenses actually were. Remember, this is before analytics and the internet really blew up and made it easy to compare defenses across all of D-1.
KP Defensive rank under Weber:
2004 - 39th
2005 - 4th
2006 - 12th
2007 - 5th
2008 - 29th
2009 - 4th
2010 - 49th
2011 - 23rd
2012 - 36th
fortunately the stats that people actually care and use, ie those from kenpom or torvik, are not just simple averages as you showed in your example. They are *adjusted*, meaning that for each game, the offensive/defensive efficiencies are adjusted by the opponent’s o/d efficiencies. To put it more simply, 80 pts against Maryland will weight more than 80pts against Iowa in the calculation of our adjusted offensive efficiency season to date. So your concern for stats is kind of moot.
Sigh... Up to that 2009 year, these were Weber's defenses:
'04: 0.957ppp, 39th
'05: 0.896ppp, 4th
'06: 0.913ppp, 12th
'07: 0.898ppp, 5th
'08: 0.940ppp, 29th
'09: 0.881ppp, 4th
That's 4 Top 12 defenses in 5 seasons. We want to split hairs, we can, but yes, I would call that a pretty consistent Top 10 defense. But if you want to here are the list of teams that had at least 4 Top 20 defensive finishes in that 6 year period:
6: Kansas
5: Louisville, Duke, UCONN, Wazzu
4: Illinois, Wisky, Purdue, UNC, Nova, Memphis
That's it. So yeah, I'd say we had one of the most consistent top defensive teams of that era and I don't think it's all that particularly debatable.
IlliniwekKDR
- Colorado Springs, CO
I sat right on the sidelines in Orange Krush for that debacle. Worse yet, I convinced my professor to let me take my evening physiology exam earlier in the day so that I could go watch that pile of
gameAn average of 22nd in the nation and a median of 23rd. Never worse than 49th. Are we contending that’s NOT a good defensive stretch? Because I feel like that’s pretty solid.
Lol now you're just making stuff up. Brad never gave Tyler extended minutes to the detriment of our actual players.
You want a justification for Tyler being assistant coach in charge of our offense,, I'll give you two: #3 and #14. Those are our national offensive efficiency ranks since Tyler took over that side of the ball. He hasn't given us a reason to believe he's not up for the job, in fact he's objectively shown he's good at it. We're not talking about Miles Smith here.
I mean if you don't think a 4th,12th,5th,29th,4th ranked defense over a 5 year period is elite, that's more a you expectation problem than reality. You really can't do all that much better than that. As for analytics not existing then, what are you even talking about? Humorously that was a year I was actively testing the fanmatch engine for Ken, lol...
Lol. Now do Theo Epstein and get back to me.
I was there...NO THANKS
Sure…athleticism, the alignment of your offensive set, and how many dudes you choose to send to the offensive boards are all factors.
Yet, certain teams seem to be consistently better at getting organized and stopping the ball than others…despite these challenges. I agree some of it is happenstance…that leads to run outs and immediate numbers advantages…you can do nothing about…
I agree some of it is the aforementioned coaching philosophies/choices on the other end…that exacerbate the problem.
Like you say, if we’ve got dudes spacing in the corner on that particular set…and the TO happens mid court with 3 guys crashing we’re likely screwed. You’re not wrong. But what you don’t do is give up. Your defense starts on offense technically right? Maybe send one or two less guys to the boards if starts to turn into a track meet? That’s a coaching choice too right? That would at least help to mitigate the problem overall.
I have to push back…on your implication that Kentucky’s athleticism was the sole culprit. I would counter that by saying the exact same thing happened against Xavier as well as some others that
:means it was a pattern.
I’d better shut up. I’ve probably reached my quota for skewing off topic.
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sacraig
- The desert
For me, the point is that our offense generated a lot of open looks, but a sizable number of them were threes and our personnel were, notably, not good at shooting threes. So, in general, I think our offense is fine when the players' skill sets are aligned with it, but our staff refused to really adjust it to align with the fact that we simply weren't very good at shooting threes.
TentakilRex
- Land O Insects between Quincy-Macomb-Jacksonville
1. Always had in this century except 2011. Even during the 1990s, the NBA has been style over substance. Plus Nico Harrison is a moron.
2. I am not basketball guys, but yeah defense is a much bigger issue. Heck even in the game where Oregon got curb-stomped, the Illini still allowed 77 points.
3. Illinois does play at high pace. I'll get that Trapezoid thing later.
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/possessions-per-gameThis cuts both ways. The Illini leading the Big Ten in ppg is bit misleading, they play at higher pace than the rest of B1G. It is like USC Trojans leading the Big Ten passing yards last season. However the games where "bad Illini" show up, it looks even worse than from a slower pace team because the Illini are having turnovers and missing shots more often
BTW this explains that Trapezoid thing
sacraig
- The desert
Consistent effort and pride in playing defense.
If you look at results against good teams the offense is not that great. Knowing which shot to take and when to take it is important. The fact that everyone shot poorer than their history would show is an indication of shots that should not have been taken. Balance, position and speed in which the shot has to be taken are indications of an offense that does not work as it should. All the players do not get worse all at once. I think the team as a whole just showed that they are not taught what to do, when to do it and how to do it and that goes to offense and defense. I know many of you will disagree with this but my eye balls tell me one thing while stats may say something else.
This is it for me. There is a noticeable difference in how Trent's teams approached that side of the game vs how our last couple teams have approached it.
I don't have a problem with drop coverage. Don't think we need to be on line up line or anything but I need to see dudes leaving it all out on the court. And the only guys this year who I'd say did that consistently on that end were Kylan, Morez, and Jake.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
And we weren't even as good at avoiding fouling as we were last year.
Keeping teams off the free throw line is good and smart and an underrated component of defensive efficiency, but you can't just let the offense dictate the way they're going to play for 40 minutes, basketball is all about forcing your opponent into situations they don't want to be in.
Curbelo Fanboy
BERTBALL IS LIFE
To me one of the biggest knocks I’ve had on Brad is his virtual 100% reliance on man to man. I really think a team should have some zone in its arsenal to use from time to time. Can save on fouls and also throw a monkey wrench into the opposing offense. It’s not a be all end all but the inflexibility bothers me. He seems to throw it out every once in a blue moon for like 5 possessions, deems that we can’t play it and then discards for rest of season.
Seems to me it’s another tool in a potential toolbox of strategies to use. But you have to use it some for it to be effective.
sacraig
- The desert
I'd rather be all-in on being a lock-down man-to-man team than spend extra time learning to play a mediocre zone as a wrinkle. We can't be lock-down at both.
So for 1/3 of Weber's tenure we were atop 10 defense and the other 2/3 we weren't.
How the **** is that splitting hairs? You're just cherry picking data.
How the **** is that splitting hairs? You're just cherry picking data.
Why do you insist on just excluding the rest of his tenure? That's really convenient.
Tempo-free stats were not mainstream in 2006. Per possession metrics were not common knowledge to the average fan in the 00's. Are you really trying to argue that KenPom was being used or discussed in the mainstream then? LOL, ok dude.
I get what you're saying, but we just need a zone that works. A quick zone shift can really mess with their flow when our man-to-man isn't so lock-down (and our opponents tend to have a lot of scoring runs). IMO, a bit of zone practice would be a better use of our time than the incremental benefit of using the same small amount of time refining our man-to-man.
A serviceable box and one would be great to run every so often to shut down the player who's having a career night against us, for instance.
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