Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#451      
Fighter of the Nightman
NarrowJ said:
That and the fact those are elite, like top 3 candidates. When has Illinois ever hired that level of coaching candidate? (Self wasn’t thought of in that way, we hired him from Tulsa so it’s not him)

Far more likely we’d hire someone from a mid-major school like we always have. That’s not a bad thing, and I’m sure Josh would get the best guy possible.
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Brad Underwood was swiped from a Power Conference school with a good basketball history and we’ve literally taken a sitting coach from one of the schools in question, Florida, lol. I’m not saying we can just take whomever we want, but no need to downplay our job’s prestige either, as we haven’t “always” hired mid-major coaches.

Self also was far from a typical mid-major hire. He obviously was one, but he was exceptionally hyped for a mid-major coach, and everyone knew he was a rising star. It would be much more comparable to Michigan getting Dusty May than it would to Iowa getting Fran McCaffrey.
 
#452      
NarrowJ
Fighter of the Nightman said:
Brad Underwood was swiped from a Power Conference school with a good basketball history and we’ve literally taken a sitting coach from one of the schools in question, Florida, lol. I’m not saying we can just take whomever we want, but no need to downplay our job’s prestige either, as we haven’t “always” hired mid-major coaches.
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I mean Florida wasn’t anywhere close to the same thing in 1996… we hired Lon off of a two year stretch where he went 29-29 and had missed two tournaments in a row… not really the same thing as hiring a guy who just won a NC lol.

The equivalent today would be like hiring Steve Forbes from Wake Forest.
 
#453      
Fighter of the Nightman
NarrowJ said:
I mean Florida wasn’t anywhere close to the same thing in 1996… we hired Lon off of a two year stretch where he went 29-29 and had missed two tournaments in a row… not really the same thing as hiring a guy who just won a NC lol
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I didn’t say it was, I said your characterization of us “always hiring mid-majors” was unfair. It insinuated that our job prestige is similar to Minnesota where swiping a sitting Power Conference coach is just not realistic, even though that’s literally what we did for our last coach. Just sort of had a “vibe” to it of when the Weber supporters would downplay our own program’s prestige and tradition to remain supportive of Bruce’s results, which was something I took huge issue with.

I support Brad and want to keep him, and I also think we could get another coach from a Power Conference program if and when the time comes!
 
#454      
ChiefGritty
Earlier in his tenure here Whitman definitely showed a preference for very established, obviously credible figures. Lovie Smith, took the Bears to the Super Bowl, Nancy Fahey, literally in the Hall of Fame, Brad Underwood, #1 offense in the country, Bret Bielema, 3 time Big Ten champion.

I wonder to what extent hitting big on the mid-major lottery with Shauna Green has revised his thinking.

I would imagine not a ton, and if the men's team became open he'd once again be looking for those obvious elevator pitch qualifications, but I suppose you never know.
 
#455      
NarrowJ
Fighter of the Nightman said:
I didn’t say it was, I said your characterization of us “always hiring mid-majors” was unfair. It insinuated that our job prestige is similar to Minnesota where swiping a sitting Power Conference coach is just not realistic, even though that’s literally what we did for our last coach. Just sort of had a “vibe” to it of when the Weber supporters would downplay our own program’s prestige and tradition to remain supportive of Bruce’s results, which was something I took huge issue with.

I support Brad and want to keep him, and I also think we could get another coach from a Power Conference program if and when the time comes!
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Ok so I’ll correct my statement, we’ve always hired guys with little-to-no power conf experience (Brad goes in this bucket) or guys from high majors who were objectively bad (Lon Kruger) prior to us giving them a job.

I agree that Josh could hire a power conference guy, it just isn’t going to be Nate Oats or Todd Golden (especially not while UNC or Kansas or Kentucky etcetera has an opening).

I’m not throwing shade at our program and comping us to Minnesota by saying we are unlikely to make the big splash hire in a given coaching cycle.
 
#456      
mhuml32
ChiefGritty said:
It's not even super clear how those mechanics work anymore. Who are the top 1, 2 guys in the current cycle?

Anyway, let's just keep BU forever.
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My initial reaction is McCullom (P4 guy) and Schertz (non-P4 guy) are the top candidates if a program with quasi-championship hopes had a job open. McCullom is too early though, if he finishes 4th in B1G next year then a title contender will go after him.
 
#457      
Heisenbobble
NarrowJ said:
I mean Florida wasn’t anywhere close to the same thing in 1996… we hired Lon off of a two year stretch where he went 29-29 and had missed two tournaments in a row… not really the same thing as hiring a guy who just won a NC lol.

The equivalent today would be like hiring Steve Forbes from Wake Forest.
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Lon Kruger made a Final Four with Florida in 1994, two years before taking the Illinois job. Comparing that to Steve Forbes is absurd. C'mon now.
 
#458      
Fighter of the Nightman
NarrowJ said:
Ok so I’ll correct my statement, we’ve always hired guys with little-to-no power conf experience (Brad goes in this bucket) or guys from high majors who were objectively bad (Lon Kruger) prior to us giving them a job.
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And we’ve always followed one good football season with a losing season in the modern era. New leadership in Champaign, new day. I won’t limit our appeal to what Ron Guenther could pitch or what JW was able to swing while our program was in its worst shape in decades in a pre-NIL era. 😎
 
#459      
mhuml32
ChiefGritty said:
Earlier in his tenure here Whitman definitely showed a preference for very established, obviously credible figures. Lovie Smith, took the Bears to the Super Bowl, Nancy Fahey, literally in the Hall of Fame, Brad Underwood, #1 offense in the country, Bret Bielema, 3 time Big Ten champion.

I wonder to what extent hitting big on the mid-major lottery with Shauna Green has revised his thinking.

I would imagine not a ton, and if the men's team became open he'd once again be looking for those obvious elevator pitch qualifications, but I suppose you never know.
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Shauna Green is the new-age Bill Self hire. Young coach that is excelling so much at the G5 level that national folks identify her as a rising star.
 
#460      
NarrowJ
Fighter of the Nightman said:
And we’ve always followed one good football season with a losing season in the modern era. New leadership in Champaign, new day. I won’t limit our appeal to what Ron Guenther could pitch or what JW was able to swing while our program was in its worst shape in decades in a pre-NIL era. 😎
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I’m not doing that either though. I’m just saying us getting the top 1, 2 guys in a given cycle is highly unlikely.

The original thought was we’d just go out and get Oats or Golden and I’m saying don’t get your hopes up because some blue blood will also want them.
 
#463      
ChiefGritty
NarrowJ said:
Ok so I’ll correct my statement, we’ve always hired guys with little-to-no power conf experience (Brad goes in this bucket) or guys from high majors who were objectively bad (Lon Kruger) prior to us giving them a job.
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I don't like to give too much credence to all the crypto-Guentherism about Mike Thomas, but I think you'd have to say that since the Slush Fund, the only hire we've made with a "speculative" resume has been John Groce.

Bartow, Henson and Kruger had all recently been to Final Fours. Self was the hottest name in the business. Weber was a dominant mid-major coach over a sustained period who was well established in the league. Underwood was a mix of Self and Weber.

We're a good job, there would be options. But again, let's worry about this in a decade.

mhuml32 said:
Shauna Green is the new-age Bill Self hire. Young coach that is excelling so much at the G5 level that national folks identify her as a rising star.
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I don't have the WBB expertise to opine, but just looking at the numbers it looks like Matt Bollant was a lot more successful at Green Bay than she was at Dayton?

It's also hard to make comparisons because for reasons I've never understood our WBB job has been an absolute dumpster fire.
 
#465      
Hoopster
NarrowJ said:
Ok so I’ll correct my statement, we’ve always hired guys with little-to-no power conf experience (Brad goes in this bucket) or guys from high majors who were objectively bad (Lon Kruger) prior to us giving them a job.

I agree that Josh could hire a power conference guy, it just isn’t going to be Nate Oats or Todd Golden (especially not while UNC or Kansas or Kentucky etcetera has an opening).

I’m not throwing shade at our program and comping us to Minnesota by saying we are unlikely to make the big splash hire in a given coaching cycle.
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Keep correcting,

Florida​

In his six seasons with Florida, Kruger compiled a 104–80 mark. In the process, he led the University of Florida to its first Final Four appearance in 1994.

He was named SEC coach of the year in 1992 and 1994.

And prior to his Florida stint, took K State to the elite 8, and to the tourney all 4 years he was there.
 
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#466      
NarrowJ
ChiefGritty said:
I don't like to give too much credence to all the crypto-Guentherism about Mike Thomas, but I think you'd have to say that since the Slush Fund, the only hire we've made with a "speculative" resume has been John Groce.

Bartow, Henson and Kruger had all recently been to Final Fours. Self was the hottest name in the business. Weber was a dominant mid-major coach over a sustained period who was well established in the league. Underwood was a mix of Self and Weber.

We're a good job, there would be options. But again, let's worry about this in a decade.
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Agreed... I am perhaps selling Lon a bit short but you have to admit the two horrid seasons prior to us hiring him: the shine had worn a bit there...

Josh did the same thing as his predecessors... he hired an up-and-comer (ie, not a "top name")... but that worked great so we should be confident if the next hire is similar (and not the current hottest name in the business) is really my overall point
 
#467      
AirTran
It's not even super clear how those mechanics work anymore. Who are the top 1, 2 guys in the current cycle?

Anyway, let's just keep BU forever.
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Well, we want coaches that want to be at Illinois, not looking for the next step.
 
#468      
RabidDawgClassic
NarrowJ said:
Agreed. Guy had 1 year of high major experience and has worked out great so far. We’ve never went and plucked a top name in a cycle. So when people ask why we aren’t going to do that, that’s the obvious answer.

Josh would get us a fine replacement, it’s just not going to be the top 1, 2 guys in the cycle when one or multiple blue bloods also have openings in that same cycle. Even if money is roughly equal, does North Carolina land the elite guy or does Illinois?
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Bill Self was the top name in the cycle when we grabbed him, but he also fits the criteria of a mid-major coach who had one year of tournament success. He was even a unicorn back then.
 
#469      
NarrowJ
RabidDawgClassic said:
Bill Self was the top name in the cycle when we grabbed him, but he also fits the criteria of a mid-major coach who had one year of tournament success. He was even a unicorn back then.
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I mean we are talking about Nate Oats and Todd Golden who aren't really "in the cycle" anyway though... so a more equivalent example might be if we had went after Billy Donovan fresh off his NC game appearance
 
#470      
NarrowJ
Heisenbobble said:
Lon Kruger made a Final Four with Florida in 1994, two years before taking the Illinois job. Comparing that to Steve Forbes is absurd. C'mon now.
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Hoopster said:
Keep correcting,

Florida​

In his six seasons with Florida, Kruger compiled a 104–80 mark. In the process, he led the University of Florida to its first Final Four appearance in 1994.

He was named SEC coach of the year in 1992 and 1994.

And prior to his Florida stint, took K State to the elite 8, and to the tourney all 4 years he was there.
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Yes, I stepped back from that a bit. He was, in fact, 29-29 in the two years following... so not that off base. We hired a guy who, while having some prior success, had made the tournament twice in 6 seasons at Florida.

Regardless, we are not hiring Nate Oats and we are not hiring Todd Golden (which is the whole point everyone's ignoring in favor of nitpicking an evaluation of Lon Kruger), and if anyone wants to make a wager otherwise, I'll gladly accept.
 
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#471      
ChiefGritty
RabidDawgClassic said:
Bill Self was the top name in the cycle when we grabbed him, but he also fits the criteria of a mid-major coach who had one year of tournament success. He was even a unicorn back then.
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Self was The Guy, you had to be there.

Of course as it actually happened there was supposedly a deal in place with Kelvin Sampson (who had yet to have his best success at Oklahoma) that fell through before we turned to Self, but there has always been a bit of he said, she said about what actually went on there.
 
#472      
BashCtIllini
RabidDawgClassic said:
Bill Self was the top name in the cycle when we grabbed him, but he also fits the criteria of a mid-major coach who had one year of tournament success. He was even a unicorn back then.
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That's not accurate. Bill Self had turned Oral Roberts around. They were 5-22 the year before Self got there, and he got them to 21-7 in 4 years. Then he went to a good mid-major program and took them to the Elite 8. He was an obvious candidate, but he'd been a head coach for 7 years and had high levels of success at 2 schools. He was not some one year blip.
 
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#473      
Heisenbobble
NarrowJ said:
Yes, I stepped back from that a bit. He was, in fact, 29-29 in the two years following... so not that off base. We hired a guy who, while having some prior success, had made the tournament twice in 6 seasons at Florida.

Regardless, we are not hiring Nate Oats and we are not hiring Todd Golden (which is the whole point everyone's ignoring in favor of nitpicking an evaluation of Lon Kruger), and if anyone wants to make a wager otherwise, I'll gladly accept.
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This was the dumpster fire that Kruger had to deal with when he took the Florida job:

Norm Sloan Florida Scandal

"(Norm) Sloan had already planned to retire at the end of the 1989–90 season. However, he was forced to retire on October 31, 1989, just days before the start of the season, in the wake of an NCAA investigation into the Gators program.[15][16][1][17]

In September 1990, the NCAA imposed two years' probation on the Gators for violations dating back to 1985 under Sloan. The Gators' 1987 and 1988 NCAA Tournament appearances were erased from the record books due to Maxwell being retroactively declared ineligible; Maxwell had admitted to taking money from agents without Sloan's knowledge. Sloan had also purchased a plane ticket to Boston for Maxwell in the summer of 1987 so that Maxwell could serve as a counselor at a basketball camp. Two years earlier, one of Sloan's assistants had allowed a recruit's mother to use the return leg of the recruit's airline ticket to return home after the recruit enrolled in summer school. In the NCAA's view, this amounted to the university paying for the travel expenses of recruits and players. It also harshly criticized Sloan, finding that he had engaged in unethical conduct by paying Maxwell's airfare. The basketball program lost two scholarships in 1991-92 and one scholarship in 1992-93 because of the infractions. As severe as these penalties were, the NCAA said it would have imposed even harsher penalties, such as a ban from postseason play and live television in 1990–91, had Sloan not been forced out. Sloan was personally penalized with a five-year show-cause penalty, which had the effect of blackballing him from the collegiate coaching ranks until 1995 at the earliest."

He did one helluva good job to get that program on solid footing and taking them to a Final Four. And it was a major coup for Illinois to get him back then. Make no mistake, he was considered a great hire and an incredible steal from another power conference team.
 
#474      
AirTran
NarrowJ said:
Ok so I’ll correct my statement, we’ve always hired guys with little-to-no power conf experience (Brad goes in this bucket) or guys from high majors who were objectively bad (Lon Kruger) prior to us giving them a job.

I agree that Josh could hire a power conference guy, it just isn’t going to be Nate Oats or Todd Golden (especially not while UNC or Kansas or Kentucky etcetera has an opening).

I’m not throwing shade at our program and comping us to Minnesota by saying we are unlikely to make the big splash hire in a given coaching cycle.
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Pretty accurate observation from where I sit.
 
#475      
AirTran
BashCtIllini said:
That's not accurate. Bill Self had turned Oral Roberts around. They were 5-22 the year before Self got there, and he got them to 21-7 in 4 years. Then he went to a good mid-major program and took them to the Elite 8. He was an obvious candidate, but he'd been a head coach for 7 years and had high levels of success at 2 schools. He was not some one year blip.
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All true. Notre Dame, UNC, Memphis, Kansas State, Georgia Tech, Nabraska all hired new coaches in 2000. From what was available - the schools that tried to hire him were Missouri, Nebraska, Minnesota, Georgia Tech and Illinois.
 
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