College Athletes May Qualify as Employees

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#1      

The Galloping Ghost

The Galloping Ghost
Washington, DC
The Galloping Ghost
College athletes whose efforts primarily benefit their schools may qualify as employees deserving of pay under federal wage-and-hour laws, a U.S. appeals court ruled Thursday in a setback to the NCAA.

The court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism in college sports, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

"With professional athletes as the clearest indicators, playing sports can certainly constitute compensable work," U.S. Circuit Judge L. Felipe Restrepo wrote. "Ultimately, the touchstone remains whether the cumulative circumstances of the relationship between the athlete and college or NCAA reveal an economic reality that is that of an employee-employer."
www.espn.com

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Hold on to your butts.
 
#2      
blackdog
"The Division I athletes and former athletes behind the suit in Philadelphia are seeking more modest hourly wages similar to those earned by their peers in work-study programs. They argue that colleges are violating fair labor practices by failing to pay them for the time they dedicate to their sports, which they say can average 30 or more hours per week.

Lawyer Paul McDonald, representing the plaintiffs, has suggested that athletes might make $2,000 per month or $10,000 per year for participating in NCAA sports. He said many students need the money for everyday expenses.

"This notion that college athletes cannot be both students and employees is just not accurate when you have student employees on campuses," McDonald said Thursday. "It's just beyond belief, the idea that the athletes would not meet the same criteria as employees."

That seems entirely reasonable to me.
 
#3      
doowink
The Galloping Ghost said:
College athletes whose efforts primarily benefit their schools may qualify as employees deserving of pay under federal wage-and-hour laws, a U.S. appeals court ruled Thursday in a setback to the NCAA.

The court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism in college sports, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

"With professional athletes as the clearest indicators, playing sports can certainly constitute compensable work," U.S. Circuit Judge L. Felipe Restrepo wrote. "Ultimately, the touchstone remains whether the cumulative circumstances of the relationship between the athlete and college or NCAA reveal an economic reality that is that of an employee-employer."
www.espn.com

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Hold on to your butts.
Click to expand...
Sounds like this would have to be determined on an individual basis....wow....players going through the same workouts, practice, schedules, etc....some being considered employees and some not....wonder what logical and reasons will be used to differentiate???
someone running GIF
 
#4      
FloridaMan
The Galloping Ghost said:
College athletes whose efforts primarily benefit their schools may qualify as employees deserving of pay under federal wage-and-hour laws, a U.S. appeals court ruled Thursday in a setback to the NCAA.

The court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism in college sports, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

"With professional athletes as the clearest indicators, playing sports can certainly constitute compensable work," U.S. Circuit Judge L. Felipe Restrepo wrote. "Ultimately, the touchstone remains whether the cumulative circumstances of the relationship between the athlete and college or NCAA reveal an economic reality that is that of an employee-employer."
www.espn.com

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Hold on to your butts.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the NCAA will do a bang up job of developing such a test. Hell, maybe they can have some joint meetings with the IRS and come up with a super-fair, super-simple test to clear up all the confusion.
 
#5      
Illini in Italy
Sheer lunacy. There's a significant difference between an athlete on a full ride schoolyard and a work study student who is receiving that money as part of a financial aid package to afford to go to school. If they are employees do they have to be enrolled in school, take classes, have academic progress? Do they get employee benefits?

If Congress doesn't step in and take action (who knows, it could happen 😜) to provide the NCAA with some kind of anti-trust exemption, college athletics will implode if it's' own accord. We may already be well down that path . . .

crazy nicolas cage GIF
 
#6      
SeattleSlim
Illini in Italy said:
Sheer lunacy. There's a significant difference between an athlete on a full ride schoolyard and a work study student who is receiving that money as part of a financial aid package to afford to go to school. If they are employees do they have to be enrolled in school, take classes, have academic progress? Do they get employee benefits?

If Congress doesn't step in and take action (who knows, it could happen 😜) to provide the NCAA with some kind of anti-trust exemption, college athletics will implode if it's' own accord. We may already be well down that path . . .

crazy nicolas cage GIF
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Yep. Unforeseen consequences will primarily benefit the greedy SOB lawyers who are now drooling over the mess this will create.

Of course, they could do all the work pro bono … /s
 
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#7      
FloridaMan
SeattleSlim said:
Yep. Unforeseen consequences will primarily benefit the greedy SOB lawyers who are now drooling over the mess this will create.

Of course, they could do all the work pro bono … /s
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They'll probably do it for fun tho, right? In that case no pay required.
 
#8      
Bucktown
Illini in Italy said:
Sheer lunacy. There's a significant difference between an athlete on a full ride schoolyard and a work study student who is receiving that money as part of a financial aid package to afford to go to school. If they are employees do they have to be enrolled in school, take classes, have academic progress? Do they get employee benefits?

If Congress doesn't step in and take action (who knows, it could happen 😜) to provide the NCAA with some kind of anti-trust exemption, college athletics will implode if it's' own accord. We may already be well down that path . . .

crazy nicolas cage GIF
Click to expand...
We are always on the exact same page with this issue.
 
#12      
Thaillini22
I literally trust nobody outside of my inner circle of family, friends, and professional colleagues to do anything that makes sense any more. Zero.

I will conclude that on this matter, like literally all others of this ilk, that incentives will be misaligned, decisions will be corrupted by greed, and outcomes will be ridiculous.
 
#13      
Perry Range's Van
The Galloping Ghost said:
College athletes whose efforts primarily benefit their schools may qualify as employees deserving of pay under federal wage-and-hour laws, a U.S. appeals court ruled Thursday in a setback to the NCAA.

The court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism in college sports, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."

"With professional athletes as the clearest indicators, playing sports can certainly constitute compensable work," U.S. Circuit Judge L. Felipe Restrepo wrote. "Ultimately, the touchstone remains whether the cumulative circumstances of the relationship between the athlete and college or NCAA reveal an economic reality that is that of an employee-employer."
www.espn.com

Court ruling seeks test to decide if athletes are employees

A U.S. appeals court, in the latest challenge to the NCAA's long-held notion of amateurism, said a test should be developed to differentiate between students who play college sports for fun and those whose effort "crosses the legal line into work."
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Hold on to your butts.
Click to expand...
A reasonable test might include the status of each sport and its economic viability. "whose efforts benefit their schools" would indicate that there needs to be benefit for each sport. If the school is not above water in a particular sport, are they required to consider athletes employees? There is a case to be made for not.. That means that under this definition, FB and MBB could be the only ones to establish and employee relationship! Now what does Title IX have to say about that? Interesting times indeed.
 
#14      
Navy_illini
Perry Range's Van said:
A reasonable test might include the status of each sport and its economic viability. "whose efforts benefit their schools" would indicate that there needs to be benefit for each sport. If the school is not above water in a particular sport, are they required to consider athletes employees? There is a case to be made for not.. That means that under this definition, FB and MBB could be the only ones to establish and employee relationship! Now what does Title IX have to say about that? Interesting times indeed.
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The Title IX argument works and is the right argument in a not for profit amateur system that use to exist

Title IX in a business model doesn’t always make business sense. I think Women’s basketball and Volleyball are safe

But there are a lot of men and women sports that don’t make money that will be hard to justify
 
#15      
IlliniFan42
Navy_illini said:
The Title IX argument works and is the right argument in a not for profit amateur system that use to exist

Title IX in a business model doesn’t always make business sense. I think Women’s basketball and Volleyball are safe

But there are a lot of men and women sports that don’t make money that will be hard to justify
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For our university specifically, every sport outside football and men's basketball is a financial loss, with women's basketball being the greatest loss. Just something to keep in mind.
 
#17      
AZILL
Crazy, I will be 1 of millions who no longer watch when/if this happens..... There is 0 chance imo an NCPA type league
will be relevant. Having an 'affiliation' with a school will not keep current fans engaged.
 
#18      
Calvin
AZILL said:
Crazy, I will be 1 of millions who no longer watch when/if this happens..... There is 0 chance imo an NCPA type league
will be relevant. Having an 'affiliation' with a school will not keep current fans engaged.
Click to expand...

My guess is that the NCAA/universities will start to unravel fan interest, and then ask congress for help. Right now, revenue continues to climb and the setbacks on wages don't seem to be insurmountable. If the legal landscape changes too much, and fans rebel though, the decline could become an earthquake. Really difficult to predict the future with so many big changes happening.
 
#19      
AZILL
Calvin said:
My guess is that the NCAA/universities will start to unravel fan interest, and then ask congress for help. Right now, revenue continues to climb and the setbacks on wages don't seem to be insurmountable. If the legal landscape changes too much, and fans rebel though, the decline could become an earthquake. Really difficult to predict the future with so many big changes happening.
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The income is rising due to TV/Streaming contracts. As Gritty has prognosticated for the past couple of years, the choices being made are NOT in the best long-term interests of College Sports. The recent choices being made are a pure greed induced money grab! Once the eyeballs stop watching, that money will disappear....

Congress can't even effectively police themselves, let alone the country! If they manage to pass some sort of law that might mitigate the fan loss of interest, then they need to get the he!! out of the way, and then we are/will be stuck with the NCAA...... and we know how that's been going in recent years. I feel like the cat is out of the bag, and it will be a devil of a time getting it back in..... likely impossible. And there is ABSOLUTELY no way gambling will float the NCAA sports boat, that is purely a sportsbook/casino grab of easy money, none of which finds it's way into schools/players.
 
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#20      
GatorMcKlusky
Calvin said:
My guess is that the NCAA/universities will start to unravel fan interest, and then ask congress for help. Right now, revenue continues to climb and the setbacks on wages don't seem to be insurmountable. If the legal landscape changes too much, and fans rebel though, the decline could become an earthquake. Really difficult to predict the future with so many big changes happening.
Click to expand...
Colleges need sports to sell their overpriced tuition. Unlike Illinois, there are many schools that are built around their football or basketball team - especially private schools. Notre Dame in football is the easiest example. Without football, how many kids would want to trudge to classes in a foot or two of snow in the winter in South Bend instead of going to school in the South or Southwest? Consider this...

Why High Schoolers in the Northeast Are Flocking South for College​

Students from New York, New Jersey and other New England states are opting for cheaper tuition, big-time sports and less politically charged campuses in the South. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...h-draws-east-coast-students-south-for-college
 
#21      
IlliniFan42
AZILL said:
The income is rising due to TV/Streaming contracts. As Gritty has prognosticated for the past couple of years, the choices being made are NOT in the best long-term interests of College Sports. The recent choices being made are a pure greed induced money grab! Once the eyeballs stop watching, that money will disappear....
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For me, a Big Ten fan that perhaps represents other Big Ten fans, I am excited that the PAC-12 broke up in terms of what I can and want to watch.

Before, the PAC-12 Network was an awful experience and frankly I had no reason to care about those games, but even if I wanted to watch them it was too difficult to find them. Now I have Big Ten games that'll be on pacific time meaning there will be games I care about for a much wider time range than before, and more Big Ten games overall.
 
#22      
AZILL
Living in AZ I watched the PAC12 network many times..... Was happier though to watch earlier games from further East. Worked better with my evening routine.... So their demise really doesn't impact me significantly.
 
#23      
sbillini
GatorMcKlusky said:
Colleges need sports to sell their overpriced tuition. Unlike Illinois, there are many schools that are built around their football or basketball team - especially private schools. Notre Dame in football is the easiest example. Without football, how many kids would want to trudge to classes in a foot or two of snow in the winter in South Bend instead of going to school in the South or Southwest? Consider this...

Why High Schoolers in the Northeast Are Flocking South for College​

Students from New York, New Jersey and other New England states are opting for cheaper tuition, big-time sports and less politically charged campuses in the South. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...h-draws-east-coast-students-south-for-college
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Interesting notre dame is your example - they actually have a stellar academic reputation. Yes, football is a huge part of their heritage, but they've successfully parlayed that into endowment growth and, subsequently, academic prestige. if football went away tomorrow, i think they'd still be ok.

regarding northeast students going to the south, from my personal experience (6 nieces and nephews high school/college age), going to south is definitely something they consider, but solely as backup schools if they can't get into their preferred school(s) in the northeast. essentially, if you can't get into the school you want, might as well go to one in better weather.
 
#24      
Roundball Sage
College athletes should be treated as individual private contractors. They are selling their talents to the institutions that most meet their personal needs and that values them the most. And athletes have the freedom to move on after a single season without being tied up in bureaucratic red-tape.

Athletes should get a measure of insurance protection from institutions for any injuries suffered (like a private contractor being hurt at some job site) but they should also have their own personal health insurance beyond what an institution would provide.

This gives the athlete the greatest potential for income earned as they deserve from performance ... their freedom of movement... while institutions know they have that athlete’s services for a 12-month period to count on.

God Bless the Portal. Worst to First in a single season now possible.
 
#25      
grue2
Roundball Sage said:
College athletes should be treated as individual private contractors. They are selling their talents to the institutions that most meet their personal needs and that values them the most. And athletes have the freedom to move on after a single season without being tied up in bureaucratic red-tape.

Athletes should get a measure of insurance protection from institutions for any injuries suffered (like a private contractor being hurt at some job site) but they should also have their own personal health insurance beyond what an institution would provide.

This gives the athlete the greatest potential for income earned as they deserve from performance ... their freedom of movement... while institutions know they have that athlete’s services for a 12-month period to count on.

God Bless the Portal. Worst to First in a single season now possible.
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Private contractors are not allowed any benefits from the employer. It is part of the definition of contractor vs. employee. Another key clause is that the employer can only tell the contractor what they want done; the employer is not allowed to tell them how to do it, or provide any training.

This doesn't sound like a college athlete to me.

As far as I know (IANAL), as someone who used to do contracting, any injuries are the contractors responsibility unless they can prove gross negligence on the employers part.

In terms of expenses, a private contractor would need to pay full price for everything themselves. Room/board/insurance/facility use/trainer time/ ...
 
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