College Sports (Basketball)

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#101      
the juiceman cometh
ChiefGritty said:
I totally agree with this, I just ultimately don't expect current players to do something so speculative (and very practically difficult, no one is exactly sure how a college sports union would work, and there have been attempts) to benefit future players at a huge cost to themselves.
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Really?

Pro sports have unions. TAs and RAs have unions. It would probably work like either or both or some combination of those.

ChiefGritty said:
But that kind of goes to my original point. If the entrusted leaders of these institutions had really cared about stewarding the game into its unavoidably changed future in that 2010-2013ish period when the unworkability of the old ways became clear, revenue sport collective bargaining was absolutely possible.

We could have had Literally 1995 in college sports with the sole change being players getting cut in on the exploding financial growth of the industry in a structured and stable way. We could have done it. None of this was inevitable.
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There really was no way for this to happen without players being employees, otherwise you just end up in the same exact place. And once players are employees a union is inevitable, as players will want the best possible deal and players' unions have a proven track record of increaseling player compensation (and safety). Not to mention that a bargained for CBA is easiest possible vehicle for implementing the guidelines the NCAA wants to implement. The NCAA just doesn't want to bargain for them. They want the guidelines without having to give anything up. You're not going to get that without a legislative anti-trust carve out.
 
#102      
ChiefGritty
the juiceman cometh said:
Really?

Pro sports have unions. TAs and RAs have unions. It would probably work like either or both or some combination of those.


There really was no way for this to happen without players being employees, otherwise you just end up in the same exact place. And once players are employees a union is inevitable, as players will want the best possible deal and players' unions have a proven track record of increaseling player compensation (and safety). Not to mention that a bargained for CBA is easiest possible vehicle for implementing the guidelines the NCAA wants to implement. The NCAA just doesn't want to bargain for them. They want the guidelines without having to give anything up. You're not going to get that without a legislative anti-trust carve out.
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Listen I don't want to sound like I'm not an ardent supporter of unionized labor, because the opposite is the case.

And I do believe a union, or at least something union-like would have been possible if you'd started from the conditions of 2010 rather than 2026 (it's still POSSIBLE and probably desirable, just unlikely and not in the individual players interests at this time).

But the overarching thing here is that college football and men's basketball are the most popular minor league sports on earth by several orders of magnitude. I think the impulse to build a rational business around college sports founders on the shoals of the whole enterprise not being remotely rational.

There is a magic to college sports, built on an appeal to one's own college years and a connectivity to tradition that's unique in the sports world. The challenge that faced the sport's leadership in the early 2000's was to find a way to steward and preserve that unique magic while bowing to the practical, legal, and moral necessity of cutting the players in on the explosion in revenue growth that magic was producing.

Instead, it's almost impossible to imagine how that leadership could have performed worse, acting with selfish disregard for the games they were stewarding, cynical greed for maximizing their own individual take, and no vision for the future or ability to work collectively whatsoever.
 
#104      
RabidDawgClassic
Chief Piasa said:
This is a fascinating topic.

College is education and college sports are an industry, as you said. But it’s the entertainment industry and you don’t see talent like Beyoncé or Taylor Swift or Paul McCartney clamoring for unions. Talent like that can demand their own pay scale and that means that only a few cities or venues can accommodate them.

By the same logic, entertainers like Arch Manning and AJ Dybantsa can command top dollar and only a few colleges and conferences can afford them. That’s entertainment and that’s America. Since more schools have surfaced as new powers, maybe the entertainment industry is a good thing.

I’m really curious as to whether the proposed congressional action will even be constitutional since I’m sure Taylor Swift and Arch Manning wouldn’t appreciate it if we required them to unionize and lose money.

Whether this causes the implosion of the industry is a good question. Maybe we’ll have a super college industry and another college championship of “real” college students that will become popular. If that popularity happens, and it produces money, the next question is whether we go down this rat hole again.
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But you DO see top athletes in the NFL and NBA accept salary restrictions. The difference between a Taylor Swift and a Patrick Mahomes is that there aren’t a limit of 32 venues where Swift could perform. If a Lady Gaga or Billie Eilish comes along and becomes better than Taylor Swift, Swift isn’t in danger of being unemployed. Once Mahomes becomes washed up, there’s no Vegas residency for him. NFL and NBA players accept the restrictions because they know a five year contract (mostly) means they’ll be guaranteed five years worth of salary, even if they ultimately perform at Ryan Leaf level.

Edit: I do suppose that the broadcast booth is the athlete’s equivalent of a Vegas residency.
 
#105      
Ill... INI 27
ChiefGritty said:
Listen I don't want to sound like I'm not an ardent supporter of unionized labor, because the opposite is the case.

And I do believe a union, or at least something union-like would have been possible if you'd started from the conditions of 2010 rather than 2026 (it's still POSSIBLE and probably desirable, just unlikely and not in the individual players interests at this time).

But the overarching thing here is that college football and men's basketball are the most popular minor league sports on earth by several orders of magnitude. I think the impulse to build a rational business around college sports founders on the shoals of the whole enterprise not being remotely rational.

There is a magic to college sports, built on an appeal to one's own college years and a connectivity to tradition that's unique in the sports world. The challenge that faced the sport's leadership in the early 2000's was to find a way to steward and preserve that unique magic while bowing to the practical, legal, and moral necessity of cutting the players in on the explosion in revenue growth that magic was producing.

Instead, it's almost impossible to imagine how that leadership could have performed worse, acting with selfish disregard for the games they were stewarding, cynical greed for maximizing their own individual take, and no vision for the future or ability to work collectively whatsoever.
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I agree totally, just want to point out, College basketball is head over heels above pro basketball, at this moment. (This legalese is closing gap) NFL, top sports entertainment, MLB is barely above next sports entity,BUT, only barely due to last stoppage by strike, AND rumors are...another one coming...NCAA basketball due to local loyalty, THE tournament, and balance of quality of play, all teams, " have a chance, on a given day, and most can play the game for funsies, if choose to...NCAA football, much of above, but...a few negatives in general, BUT a few zealot...zones...What was the question again?
 
#106      
Calvin
Why would the players volunteer to form an organization whose sole purpose would be limiting their bargaining power?

I was a card-carrying "fix everything with a union" guy until it sunk in that there was nothing in that plan for the players.

Now, when the bubble bursts, maybe that changes. But as long as NIL values are exploding year after year with zero limitation on player movement, the status quo is the best of all possible worlds for today's players.
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This seems like a gross oversimplification and strawman, assuming you mean players when using the plural. Unions never "fix everything" and that's not really their purpose. Collective bargaining can take many forms, and there are many unions already in the college space that have improved wages, benefits, working conditions, or dispute resolution for its employees.

Side note, it's a fair question as to whether someone thinks a union does in fact improve things overall for the people they represent. For college football, it's hard to imagine a contract that wouldn't address a lot of the current uncertainty and greatly speed the resolution process. The endless lawsuits need to stop.
 
#107      
BalloonsTheElephant
It's also difficult because the ones who would participate in the union are 18-22 year olds who don't know what union representation really means and how to exercise it correctly. The constant, forced turnover is difficult to manage, and the top players who come in are looking solely to cash in for a year before departing for the NBA.

Plus you have 350+ teams, just in D1. I love the complete unabashed capitalism in play right now. It means the truest, most fair bartering system for players and teams. There's no hidden money, no backdoor payments. This system can't last forever, though. I think when it does collapse, we will see regulation and reform and probably some level of unionization.
 
#108      
March2TheArch
I literally agreed that viewership is up. What are you on about?

I can use a bit of deductive reasoning. Every third ad is a gambling commercial. Lebron just announced a Polymarket collab. ESPN has dedicated sports bets segments. DraftKings. BetMGM. States like Texas (where I live) have always prohibited online sports books like DraftKings, FanDuel and BetMGM. Now prediction markets like Kalshi and Polymarket are fair game. Texas is the 3rd most populous state in the country.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2071217050328895935

https://twitter.com/x/status/2097804387796095368

So connect some dots. Some uptick in viewership is undoubtedly driven by the normalization of betting as the #1 national pastime.

And do you not agree that “vibes” are impacted negatively by turning collegiate athletics into a Wild Wild West semi-professional league where court decisions can seemingly tilt rosters by the week? Or the fact that rosters are turning over 50%+ year-over-year and at a materially higher rate than even professional sports like NFL, NBA, and MLB.

Do you recall how it felt a bit different when Dee, Deron, and Luther collectively spent 11 years in Champaign-Urbana and led the team to the Sweet 16 then a Title game?
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Im outraged by the Sydney Sweeney ad 😡 send the link so we can report it
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https://twitter.com/x/status/2098415144892088677
 
#109      
Calvin
BalloonsTheElephant said:
It's also difficult because the ones who would participate in the union are 18-22 year olds who don't know what union representation really means and how to exercise it correctly. The constant, forced turnover is difficult to manage, and the top players who come in are looking solely to cash in for a year before departing for the NBA.

Plus you have 350+ teams, just in D1. I love the complete unabashed capitalism in play right now. It means the truest, most fair bartering system for players and teams. There's no hidden money, no backdoor payments. This system can't last forever, though. I think when it does collapse, we will see regulation and reform and probably some level of unionization.
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Definitely some problems would come with that as well as from the diversity of situations and programs the players face. I don't see that as a barrier to an initial deal from the players side because there are a lot of interested parties (agents, lawyers, program folks) that would jump in and do the heavy lifting, and there is SOOO much money on the table. For sure agents take advantage of their role, but that's to be expected.
The leagues are also an issue. The BIG and SEC have a hard time aligning, and they certainly aren't doing what's in the other conference's interest.
 
#112      
Mr. Tibbs
sad
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I know first hand what this is all about .
it’s devastating to a family .
seriously , the worst you can imagine . ugh

my thoughts & prayers go out to him
 
#122      
the juiceman cometh
PNWIllini said:
This is BS, like when Canada limits the number of Americans who can play in the CFL.
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It's exactly like that, or like foreign player limits in various soccer leagues globally.

An interesting side effect of those policies is always that they artificially inflate the value of domestic players, since teams are required to have a certain quota of them. In our case that would mean futher inflation of NIL for American prep recruits. Hard to say if this would actually cause any perceptible impact because the US remains the largest basketball player factory in the world, but expect sports agents to throw their weight behind it in the hopes it does.
 
#123      
the juiceman cometh
the juiceman cometh said:
It's exactly like that, or like foreign player limits in various soccer leagues globally.

An interesting side effect of those policies is always that they artificially inflate the value of domestic players, since teams are required to have a certain quota of them. In our case that would mean futher inflation of NIL for American prep recruits. Hard to say if this would actually cause any perceptible impact because the US remains the largest basketball player factory in the world, but expect sports agents to throw their weight behind it in the hopes it does.
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Just wanted to add (but thought of it too late) that one thing this would almost certainly do is kill the path to playing in college ball for international athletes that project as role players or non-stars or however you want to describe the vast middle that most college athletes belong to. Programs aren't going to waste limited spots on that (even in non-revenue sports they likely will reserve those spots for impact recruits). Ironically these are the kinds of athletes that were coming over pre-NIL because an American university degree is a big deal globally. One of the purest forms of the romantic ideal of the "student athlete" left jettisoned because everyone wants to solve the "problem" but nobody can actually agree on what actually the problem is.
 
#124      
Ill... INI 27
the juiceman cometh said:
Just wanted to add (but thought of it too late) that one thing this would almost certainly do is kill the path to playing in college ball for international athletes that project as role players or non-stars or however you want to describe the vast middle that most college athletes belong to. Programs aren't going to waste limited spots on that (even in non-revenue sports they likely will reserve those spots for impact recruits). Ironically these are the kinds of athletes that were coming over pre-NIL because an American university degree is a big deal globally. One of the purest forms of the romantic ideal of the "student athlete" left jettisoned because everyone wants to solve the "problem" but nobody can actually agree on what actually the problem is.
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For U of I currently that is true, for Gonzaga, true, BYU, true due to Geoff, OA, and Brad being open, we have reached, guessing. 05 percentile international recruiting. A great thing. The vast majority of programs would love a top euro bench player, ie., SIU, Valpo, Butler, NU,and IU, or many of the mid hoops programs. IMHO. In this for convo and learning. Meant with good intent.
 
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